Lackawanna cutoff

NJT is a government agency with seemingly carte-blanche to sped gobs of taxpayer money with ZERO acountability when the 'promises', 'assurances' and 'facts' just happen to somehow fail to materialize all too often.

TST, I think you have overstated this just a little. Montclair Connection is a mixed success. NJT direct service to NYP but at a cost.

NJT has played a very small role in the Cut Off reactivation. This "backlash" is nothing of the sort. It is pure NIMBYism trying to find a way to cast NJT as the bad guy.

Tri-State Tom wrote:NJT is a government agency with seemingly carte-blanche to sped gobs of taxpayer money with ZERO acountability when the 'promises', 'assurances' and 'facts' just happen to somehow fail to materialize all too often.

You know, if NJT's "carte-blanche to spend gobs of taxpayer money" were anywhere remotely close to reality, can you imagine how many rail projects would already have been funded and in progress or completed, in spite of NJT's sad "completion on time and on budget" record?

Tri-State Tom wrote:BTW, Gawd Bless Frank Reilly....he's been keeping this project alive for nearly 20 YEARS !

Indeed, hats off to Frank's single-minded devotion to this project.

JLo wrote:

Mass transit and rail are often more environmentally friendly modes of moving garbage, freight, and people, but only when appropriate, and certainly not through our Highlands.

Ah, I get it. I see from this quote that natural laws are somehow altered in the Highlands, which must be in a metaphysical location that differs from the rest of us lowly New Jerseyans. Trains, which are environmentally friendly when running through Summit, for example, become menancing enviro-destructive beasts when run through the rarified air of Andover and Blairstown. Simply amazing.

It's really rather sad. I hear people purchased homes near farms and complain about the smell of animals. Now that's really amazing.

Oh, well. I will attend tomorrow night and see what's going on.

If it does pass, I wonder how long it will take to complete?

I have shots from most of the stops and better get there soon so I have before and after shots

Anyone know if there's a way to get to the top of the Paulinskill Viaduct without climbing that really steep grade?

Just under a century ago, the engineering profession marveled at the construction of a rail line from the Delaware Water Gap to Lake Hopatcong.
That 26-mile portion of the line, called the Lackawanna Cutoff, traversed from Pennsylvania into Warren and Sussex counties and ended at a Lake Hopatcong station in Morris County. Originally constructed between 1909-1911, the Lackawanna Cutoff cost $11 million to build.
“It was considered an engineering marvel,” said Sussex County Transportation Planner Tom Drabic during an interview last week at his office in Newton.
To try and build the same 26-mile line today would cost well over $1 billion, he estimated.
This week, NJ Transit is hosting three informational public meetings to display information to the public and obtain input regarding preliminary plans to rebuild the now-dismantled Lackawanna Cutoff line.
The three meetings, one of which will be in Byram, will focus on preliminary cost estimates for the project and possible station sites, said NJ Transit spokesman Ken Hitchner.
The first open house will be Monday from 3-8 p.m. at the Ramada Inn on Broad Street in Delaware Water Gap, Pa. The second will be in Byram on Tuesday from 3-8 p.m. at the Adam Todd Banquet Caterers on Route 206 at Cranberry Lake. And, the final meeting will be Thursday at the Hilton Scranton Hotel and Conference Center on Adams Avenue in Scranton, Pa., from 3-8 p.m.
There will forms at the meetings for attendees to fill out with their opinions of the project.

http://www.njherald.com/news/newspro/vi ... 8126,60307,

Jlo -

" TST, I think you have overstated this just a little. Montclair Connection is a mixed success. NJT direct service to NYP but at a cost. "

Nah.

I'll give you a partial list of FAILURES under the 'mix' -

1) Promised time savings of 15 to 18 minutes in travel to midtown never happened....and have gotten WORSE with stops at Secaucus.

2) The parking issues should have been resolved AHEAD of completion....BTW, when does the so-called '5-year moratorium' expire ?

3) Reconstructing Roseville Junction back to a 2-track from a 1-track merge complete with 'high-speed' switches....with NO improvement in travel time. And BTW, what did all THAT cost ?

4) Installing concrete ties and welded rail thru the loop connection....for 25mph speed limit.

5) Installing an elongated GLEN interlocking betwwen Bay and Glen Ridge stations further reducing track speeds.

6) Having MidTown Direct trains as LOCALS making all stops between Montclair Heights and Watsessing Ave.. Absolutely ridiculous having these trains stop at lightly patronized stations like Mountain and Watsessing.

7) Horrible lenghty transfers/meets at MSU.

Now, you run down the successes in the 'mix'.

" NJT has played a very small role in the Cut Off reactivation. This "backlash" is nothing of the sort. It is pure NIMBYism trying to find a way to cast NJT as the bad guy. "

State of NJ, NJDOT, NJT....they all swim together in the alphabet soup Jlo.


Jish -

" You know, if NJT's "carte-blanche to spend gobs of taxpayer money" were anywhere remotely close to reality, can you imagine how many rail projects would already have been funded and in progress or completed, in spite of NJT's sad "completion on time and on budget" record? "

Can you imagine what else could have been accomplished had they NOT spent gobs on Secaucus ????

Successes:

1. Direct service to NYP from Montclair (the whole point, IIRC).

2. Welded rail and concrete ties on the Montclair Branch, which hadn't seen track improvements for many years.

3. Several new or rebuilt stations, with more to come.

4. Completion of a connector that the Erie, DL&W, and EL had all proposed but couldn't get done in 75 years.

5. Pacifying Montclair's Nimbys, at least temporarily, making the service possible at all.

6. Making the potential electrification of rail west of Montclair a possibility, which would allow direct NYP service for WORMs.

7. Giving you something to bitch about.

Alphabet Soup

The may all be in the same soup, but that doesn't justify the NIMBYs the sky-is-falling anti-rail arguments. Besides, I like Minestrone better.

Jlo -

1. Direct service to NYP from Montclair (the whole point, IIRC).

Nope....the whole point was to combine two money-losing rail lines into hopefully one break-even line as well as avoid coatly repairs to the Passaic River drawbridge on the Boonton Line. Access to downtown Newark was the main selling point. The Kearney Connection only came about in the early 90's.

2. Welded rail and concrete ties on the Montclair Branch, which hadn't seen track improvements for many years.

Sorry....both the Montclair and Boonton lines had welded rail for years prior to approval for the Connection. And both lines had receiverd adequate tie replacements beginning in the mid 1980's. Save for the Connection proper, concrete ties have only been installed within station areas.....a maintenance factor as opposed to a service improvement factor as tie replasment between platforms and safety fencing has always been a pain.

3. Several new or rebuilt stations, with more to come.

Agreed....Boonton, Towaco, MSU, Montclair Heights and Bay. More to come ???

4. Completion of a connector that the Erie, DL&W, and EL had all proposed but couldn't get done in 75 years.

True....but the Erie, DL&W and Conrail had each entirely different reasons and operating plans for the combination.

5. Pacifying Montclair's Nimbys, at least temporarily, making the service possible at all.

Nope....Montclair never wanted the 'service' / Connection from the very beginning. There were law suits and several NAACP demonstrations against it that got loads of media coverage.

6. Making the potential electrification of rail west of Montclair a possibility, which would allow direct NYP service for WORMs.

Electrification to Great Notch - with the 'promise' of dramatically less deisel train use thru town - gave a big boast to project approval.

And BTW, when electification IS extended from Great Notch to Denville, riders at stations between those two points will likely have even SLOWER commutes into NYC. Why should these folks experience anything different from NJT than what riders in Chatham, Madison, Convent and Morristown have since the advent of MidTown Direct service till today ?

7. Giving you something to bitch about.

True. ;-)

" The may all be in the same soup, but that doesn't justify the NIMBYs the sky-is-falling anti-rail arguments. Besides, I like Minestrone better. "

We're surely gonna see and hear some AAA idiots this week out in Andover. But alot of the sniping/bitching would/could be tempered if NJT was more trustworthy and if someone was watching/overseeing their budgets for credibility AND accountability.

Sorry Jlo....should have added -

#2 - Welded rail on the Montclair Branch occured as part of the entire Morris & Essex system receiving same....had NOTHING to do with the 'Connection' project. ALSO, the Boonton Line - EAST OF THE CONNECTION received welded rail ( save for some curves and other isolated areas ) well before the advent of this project being approved.

One of the amazing things about the old cut off was that the train movements were virtually soundless as they moved either high above the terrain or though cuts below the terrain. At any rate, still a five mile wide or a ten mile wide pavement from the Delaware River to the Hudson is not the ansewer to moveing anything across the state. It was mentioned earlier about people who move from the city/urban areas to get away from>>>>> but find that the stink from the farm is not the "fresh country air" they expected. Those wishing to escape the drug scene need only look across the fence and see what his neighbor is growing...probably the dreaded M weed! You can't get away from progress. Progress couldn't be stopped in 1910 when the Cut Off was built; Conrail destroyed the progress when the track was quietly ripped up; now we must "return to the mighty days of yesteryear" just to catch up to 19th and 20th century progress by reusing the Cut Off. And while NJ residents have some things to protect...thier homes, etc....the problem of us Upstate New Yorkers and others from west of the Delaware River crossing your state to get to the Big Apple cannot be denied as a problem which has to be dealt with by whatever means; the best right now is probably the rail connection. Unless you want to give New York lots of money to build a concrete by-pass around North Jersey, that is.

Tri-State Tom wrote: Jish -

"You know, if NJT's "carte-blanche to spend gobs of taxpayer money" were anywhere remotely close to reality, can you imagine how many rail projects would already have been funded and in progress or completed, in spite of NJT's sad "completion on time and on budget" record? "

Can you imagine what else could have been accomplished had they NOT spent gobs on Secaucus ????

True, but that is assuming that the same gobs of money would actually have been available to spend on some other rail infrastructure, which may or may not be the case. Note that I am not justifying the spending of the gobs on ST, all that I am saying is that it is not obvious that absent spending of gobs on ST the money would have been available for building any other rail infrastructure. Maybe it would just have been spent to build a more spectacular road intersection at that location and build a highway through the Bergen Arches...... who knows?

My basic point still remains valid I think, that NJT is a creature of politics, and it only has as much "blanche" on its "carte" as the politics and politicans (i.e. the proxies for the said taxpayers) for each specific project permit.

Tri-State Tom wrote:Jlo -

1. Direct service to NYP from Montclair (the whole point, IIRC).

Nope....the whole point was to combine two money-losing rail lines into hopefully one break-even line as well as avoid coatly repairs to the Passaic River drawbridge on the Boonton Line. Access to downtown Newark was the main selling point. The Kearney Connection only came about in the early 90's.

So they appear to have partially succeeded in that endeavor then?

Tri-State Tom wrote: 6. Making the potential electrification of rail west of Montclair a possibility, which would allow direct NYP service for WORMs.

Electrification to Great Notch - with the 'promise' of dramatically less deisel train use thru town - gave a big boast to project approval.

And BTW, when electification IS extended from Great Notch to Denville, riders at stations between those two points will likely have even SLOWER commutes into NYC. Why should these folks experience anything different from NJT than what riders in Chatham, Madison, Convent and Morristown have since the advent of MidTown Direct service till today ?

This is indeed an NJT-wide problem, and indeed NJT might figure out a way to slow down their commute notwithstanding whether electrification is extended beyond Great Notch . This is what happens when one aspect of quality of service in unduly emphasized over another in coming up with metrics that are used to adjust services. In this case "on time arrival" is given undue weight over "faster service". So naturally service schedules are slowed down almost to a point where it takes a herculean effort of incompetence or bad luck to not be on time, but the trip takes longer than a tortoise running on a sleeping pill (figuratively speaking). Until the politicians (the ultimate bosses of NJT) are made to wake up and make faster and timely service a priority this trend is unlikely to change.

Tri-State Tom wrote: We're surely gonna see and hear some AAA idiots this week out in Andover. But alot of the sniping/bitching would/could be tempered if NJT was more trustworthy and if someone was watching/overseeing their budgets for credibility AND accountability.

NJT is but a part of a greater similar problem in governance of NJ. I don't see how NJT will suddenly get fixed when the rest of the state runs even worse.

Jish -

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Tri-State Tom wrote:
Jlo -

1. Direct service to NYP from Montclair (the whole point, IIRC).

Nope....the whole point was to combine two money-losing rail lines into hopefully one break-even line as well as avoid coatly repairs to the Passaic River drawbridge on the Boonton Line. Access to downtown Newark was the main selling point. The Kearney Connection only came about in the early 90's.


So they appear to have partially succeeded in that endeavor then?

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Success for NJT oprations/maintenance - NOT for the patrons.

I've never seen or heard - post Connection opening - a detailed study/report on the # of new riders from west of Great Notch with Newark as a destination point. Nor, TTBOMK, have I seen any promotion of travel to/from Newark by NJT post opening tailored to this audience. The question is WHY NOT ? Again, the accountability factor.

" This is indeed an NJT-wide problem, and indeed NJT might figure out a way to slow down their commute notwithstanding whether electrification is extended beyond Great Notch . This is what happens when one aspect of quality of service in unduly emphasized over another in coming up with metrics that are used to adjust services. In this case "on time arrival" is given undue weight over "faster service". So naturally service schedules are slowed down almost to a point where it takes a herculean effort of incompetence or bad luck to not be on time, but the trip takes longer than a tortoise running on a sleeping pill (figuratively speaking). Until the politicians (the ultimate bosses of NJT) are made to wake up and make faster and timely service a priority this trend is unlikely to change. "

BINGO ! A terrific on-the-mark comment !

NJT basically runs bus operations on rails !

" NJT is but a part of a greater similar problem in governance of NJ. I don't see how NJT will suddenly get fixed when the rest of the state runs even worse. "

BINGO ! Exactly my point to Jlo on the 'alphabet soup' reference....except you said it better than I.

Well, I went this afternoon to meet with the NJT and Byram residents and it wasn't hostile as I had imagined it would've been.

Many residents were just looking around and asking questions as to when the service may start and it is projected in about 5 years.

PA seems to welcome the restoration project (at least that's what I'm being told) while the NJ residents of Blairstown and Byram are luke-warm or about a 50-50 split.

Time will tell whether this project will ever materialize.

Ken

"NJT is but a part of a greater similar problem in governance of NJ. I don't see how NJT will suddenly get fixed when the rest of the state runs even worse. "

BINGO ! Exactly my point to Jlo on the 'alphabet soup' reference....except you said it better than I.

Well, we all need to look in the mirror if you want to find the real culprit. IMHO, people get the government they deserve. Throw the bums out instead of re-electing the same old scum and sending them to Trenton and Washington to line their own pockets.

The Lackawanna Cutoff will cost more to build and take longer to launch than was previously thought, transportation officials said Monday at a public presentation on the long-delayed rail project.

The construction will cost $350 million, up from the $200 million to $300 million estimates of recent years. And the earliest in-service date has been pushed back to 2009, Morris County's transportation director said.

Still, commuters remained eager for the arrival of the rail line that is meant to ease the traffic burden on Route 80 by giving eastbound commuters an alternate way to travel.

"It can't come soon enough," said Bill MacDougall, 43, a native of northwest New Jersey who now lives in Stockertown, Pa. "From what I hear, (Route) 80 is horrendous, and it was horrendous back when I used to do some commuting on that (highway)."

The project would allow for a 133-mile train ride from Scranton, Pa., to Hoboken, with no transfers. The plans call for restoring service along a 28-mile rail bed between Roxbury and the Pennsylvania border and building or restoring stations in as many as eight towns along the route, including Andover and Blairstown.

http://www.dailyrecord.com/news/article ... awanna.htm