Lackawanna cutoff

Not to change the direction of this thread but my point about longer distance commuter or regional rail lines is that they need to be looked
at when formulating train service from the Pocono region.

As I live Full Time on the East End of Long Island I wanted to clarify a couple of statement about the LIRR East End service. On the South Fork we have NO direct train service to Penn Station, the only dual mode direct train to Penn Station on the Montauk Branch is a Peak Hour Round trip to/fr Speonk. Speonk is not the South Fork. The key reason that the Hampton Jitney kicks the butt of the LIRR in terms of daily ridership between NYC and the South Fork is that the HJ has regulary increased it's schedule to match the changing face of the South Fork (ie more and more year round residents), while the LIRR for the most part still has it's head in the sand. The North Fork service to Greenport is even more of a joke, as the LIRR only has 5 trips orginating/terminating at Greenport in 2004!!.
For many busnessmen like myself Penn Station is a far better destination than the East Side departure points that these bus companies use.
If the LIRR had more frequent service (despite the number of stops, jointed rail etc)) many more of us would use it.

and this leads back to the Pocono Service (if it ever happens), if the schedules are not set up right, it could wind up grossly underused and Martz Trailways busier than ever.

Ken

and for the record the LIRR Montauk Branch is 100% CWR with a top speed of 65mph, while the Greenport Branch from Ronkonkoma east is still 100% jointed or stick rail with a top speed of 45 mph.

krapug wrote:On the South Fork we have NO direct train service to Penn Station, the only dual mode direct train to Penn Station on the Montauk Branch is a Peak Hour Round trip to/fr Speonk

That is correct; and is borne out on the weekday westbound timetable. (Neither Hunterspoint Avenue nor LIC station are as viable a terminus as Hoboken, however, by contrast and getting back on-topic.) The weekday eastbound schedule seems to indicate more dual-mode eastbound departures, one reaching Montauk...but the westbound is critical, for without it you cannot sell any eastbound trips to bus users. Not to mention that 65 mph is not a fast speed at all when it comes to rail, plus bus drivers do breach the speed limit on the highways when they find it feasible.

Just to contrast, here's the Hampton Jitney schedule (in PDF format) which shows far more comprehensive service than the LIRR provides, at least into the Hamptons and Montauk.

As for service into the Poconos, it's unlikely that Martz would see "more (passengers) than ever" when faced with rail service to/from Hoboken, but depending on the frequency and reliability of said train service, they certainly won't lose passengers, unless a number of their passengers are tired of sitting on I-80 for four hours or more. Not to mention that Martz service to points within NJ is not as comprehensive as a rail service would have.

and just for the record, the only eastbound through train to Montauk is the 5:08 PM Speonk train that is extended to Montauk on Fridays only from Memorial Day to Labor Day. This connects to another point about potential service from the Poconos, Dual Mode locomotives are hardly the answer to one seat rides from more distant points. Saying that the LIRR's dual mode fleet has been a failure might be too harsh, but they are hardly operating frequently, or reliably. The fact that the Friday only Cannonball Express ( it runs Fridays year round and Thur/Fri in the summer) has never been assigned dual modes speaks volumes about how questionabe these units have proven to be. For the record the Cannonball is the LIRR's one East End east bound well patronized train, it makes the 117 mile trip from Penn Station ( change at Jamaica) to Montauk in 2:39 minutes to 2:49 minutes, and even in the dead winter it usually fills all 5 bi-level cars. This is the one train that actually attracts some of the Hampton Jitney crowd, and most savy travelers board this train at Hunterspoint Avenue via the 7 Subway. This train goes the extra step of
offering "Reserve Seating" in the summer season. It also shows that a long distance "commuter" train can attract significant ridership when the schedule makes sence.

Ken

BTW, Prior to the new Diesel Equipment, the Cannonball continued to carry the "Cannonball" drumhead on it's lead locomotive (no to mention Palor Cars), this had to have been the last "commuter" train to do this.

Tri-State and Irish--
My assumption is that if the Cutoff is restored and Pocono service instituted, it will go to Hoboken, since NJT has no plans for dual-mode locomotives. Therefore, it will go via Secaucus. The ride from Secaucus to NYP is 10 minutes or so, but you have to wait for the connection.
Maybe my use of Shirley time for the slowing of trains is incorrect--maybe that particular disgrace refers to locals. My point is that even expresses run much slower than they did in Lackawanna days, and that the time is continually lenghtened, one way or another. On the old Erie, NJT had expresses that made Hoboken--Suffern in 38 minutes, a time never matched by the old Erie because it had no nonstop Suffern-Jersey City trains. NJT's Metro North expresses often arrived early on their 38 minute schedule. I guess management at NJT couldn't stand the speed. They slowed the trains for the Bergen tunnel job and never speeded them up when it was finished. There are miscellaneous, daily slow-downs, plus delays for Secaucus. The upshot is that now the 38-minute, often-early expresses now take around 45 minutes in practice. I imagine we'll get further slowing for the Ramsey park-ride. As somebody once said, if NJT owned the NEC it would be a 2-track, 79 MPH railroad.

Don't forget that for trains out of NY Penn, Secaucus Junction and Swift further slow things down...

My assumption is that if the Cutoff is restored and Pocono service instituted, it will go to Hoboken, since NJT has no plans for dual-mode locomotives. Therefore, it will go via Secaucus. The ride from Secaucus to NYP is 10 minutes or so, but you have to wait for the connection

I don't understand the "therefore it will go via Secaucus" comment. No trains going to Hoboken from the Morris & Essex Lines go through Secaucus nor are capable of doing so. The only trains that go via Secaucus Junction from the Morris & Essex lines are the Midtown Directs to/from NYP.

Oh great! Now since I hear that comment about the "what if"part of NJT owning the NEC I guess it'll take almost 3 hrs for a train to run from Hoboken to Scranton.

Glad to hear the Ramsey P/r Station is almost finished. Hopefully after that the Mt Arlington P/R Station will be next along with the Dover-PM Yard section of the M&E line will finally be electrified giving that Mt Arlington Station along with Lake Hopatcong direct NYP and weekend service.

This should've been done 5-10 yrs ago.

I believe that the "ownership of NEC by NJT" comment was from Mr. Doug Bowen from NJ-ARP (or so I recall) and was meant to project what would happen to the NEC were ownership transferred from Amtrak to NJ Transit—what with the high capital costs of the NEC. Consider the Raritan Valley Line, old DL&W Boonton Line and old Erie Main Line north of Ridgewood Junction, which all have four-track capacity at the least and six-track capacity at the most, but NJT does not maintain the maximum possible number of tracks on any of these lines.

I suspect that there was an intended comparison to ConnDOT and where they have turned the former 4-track New Haven RR Shore Line into 3-track and 2-track segments. Amtrak does not own that part of the NEC.

Irish--Of course you're right about M&E Hoboken trains not going through Secaucus--I don't know where my head was. This probably means the trip to NYP from PA would take even longer, since a passenger would have to change for a Midtown Direct train.

I thought the comment about what the NEC would be like under NJT ownership was made by someone from NJ-ARP, but I didn't remember who, so I didn't want to guess.

The fact remains that NJT is allergic to running fast trains. I don't know why, and I don't know what can be done about it.

JoeG -

Whew....for a minute there I was really getting concerned about ya Joseph !!! ( LOL ! ) Who doesn't go wacky here from time to time, eh ?

" This probably means the trip to NYP from PA would take even longer, since a passenger would have to change for a Midtown Direct train. "

" The fact remains that NJT is allergic to running fast trains. I don't know why, and I don't know what can be done about it. "

These two statements are joined at the hip Joe !

Took me awhile as well to realize that NJT's mission is to run it's inherited - previously known as 'commuter rail lines' - as glorified local bus routes or trolley lines !

'Express Service' is fast becoming an extinct term these days....

Per NJT's web site....

Next Milestone
The completion of the Environmental Assessment and conceptual design is expected June 2004.

When should we start the drum roll ?

Hmmm, and once the conceptual design is done all they need to do is secure the money for the construction phase, No?

Steve

njt4172 wrote:Hmmm, and once the conceptual design is done all they need to do is secure the money for the construction phase, No?

Steve

-----------------------------

No

The next step is usually putting the conceptual design out for hearings, comments, input from communities, and potential builders to take a crack at it. When that's done, the plan is re-worked to incorporate changes. I'm assuming the conceptual design suggests parking areas / stations and other changes that would need local zoning or building permissions, too.

Then an Environmental Review (EIS), which goes back out for comments followed by a Fed and State signoff. If the folks who have encroached the right of way by Slateford Tower find a snail darter or spotted owl, go immediately back to START.

The "Highlands Commission" if there is one by then, would need to OK it, based on McGreevey's proposal. These steps are partly underway, I believe Frelinghuysen's bill funded some preliminary water and soil testing, but I don't think anyone has done the traffic / highway studies.

Meanwhile, the engineers are building detailed plans for footings, signal wiring, conduit design, bridge work, and the hundred and one things necessary before somebody sticks a shovel in the ground.

It may be early 2006 if these steps move smoothly, so construction contracts could be let by mid-year 2006. A more likely bet is sometime in 2007, for first trains sometime in 2010 or 2011.

NJ is likely to be much more contentious than Pennsy, as there's lots more work to be done, and much less solid local government support for the project.


Paul

Lackawanna is right on track.....

Also add that money must be obtained for final design prior to getting the construction money. This would change if it is sent out as a design / build project, which is quite possible.

Since NJT is a State agency they would not need site plan or zoning approval from the locals, although they probably would allow a cursory review by them. They would need to obtain building permits.

If the money gets put in place, I think your schedule is quite good.

But, if the Highlands Commission is up and running by then, lord knows how they will delay it.


Chris

Some new news...

This came from the Erie Lackawanna email list and thought it would be of interest for those here;

Please get this information to the EL Historical Society members as
soon as possible.
NJT has just scheduled 3 public information meetings on the Lackawanna
Cut-off Passenger Rail Project. An audio visual presentation will be
repeated about every 30 minutes showing the station sites, ROW, etc., which is informative. Additionally, there will be several large diagrams showing all the proposed stations, parking, access to them, etc. Train schedules, equipment, and train frequency will be discussed as well as the expected time to get trains operating (about 5 years IF the federal and state funds are forthcoming in a timely manner). A variety of experts from NJT and consultants will be on hand to answer questions as well as the County officials advocating this project.
Since there is some opposition from Byram Twp., it would be helpful to have a good turn-out of supporters for this project. The meetings are open to everyone and are free. Be sure to fill out a comment form at the
meeting. Meeting dates and locations are:

- -- June 28 3-8pm at the Ramada Inn, Delaware Water Gap, PA
- -- June 29 3-8pm at the Adam Todd Inn, Byram Twp. (Cranbury Lake), NJ
- -- July 1 3-8pm at the Hilton Hotel, Scranton, PA (the Radisson was the 1st choice, but it was booked).

Frank Reilly
-------

Chris V

To answer the original question, Conrail called the whole thing from Hoboken to Scranton the Scranton Branch. I've seen that in an early conrail timetable.

I'll add my two cents' worth. Coming from Lehighton, my view is certainly different, but, here goes. I see the Poconos as an awesome area, beautiful to visit, and would be awesome to live in. But, I see the development of the Poconos as a catastrophe. I know it's necessary, but the way everything is being built--for the car--is a f***king shame. This year alone, in Kidder township (northeast carbon county) a proposal to built 600+/- townhomes is on the books. Naturally, they will be geared toward the commuter.

My stepfather is from Long Island, never had a white collar job, and took the bus to New York (from Lehighton) for many years. I understand that for the city dweller, it's a dream come true to move to the country, but after a few years, there are a hell of a lot of neighbors, the kids will want a mall, roads will need widening, more land will be cookie-cuttered, it will look just like the next subdivision, and in a few more years, people will be looking even farther for a place to live.

Haven't we learned a few lessons about growth, the right way and the wrong way? I guess not. I'd like to see healthier cities, and towns. I know new construction is going to occur, hell, I've had homebuilders in my family, but there should be a balance. Concentrating development along already developed areas, whether they follow highways or rail lines would be the smartest thing to do. And this particular 'project' has been debated now for well over a decade by both states, and the feds. At least the ROW is secured, right? That's a step. It doesn't look like there are any fewer homes being built.


I hope I didn't take this thread too far off point.

Mike