Lackawanna cutoff

Could a large portion of the $350 million be earmarked for rehab of the Paulins Kill and Delaware River Viaducts, as well as the re-lining or possible daylighting of the Roseville tunnel? I read in several papers that the estimated condition of the viaducts was not was good as NJT expected and they will need more work than originally planned to get them back up to standard.

Greg wrote:Could a large portion of the $350 million be earmarked for rehab of the Paulins Kill and Delaware River Viaducts, as well as the re-lining or possible daylighting of the Roseville tunnel? I read in several papers that the estimated condition of the viaducts was not was good as NJT expected and they will need more work than originally planned to get them back up to standard.

Not sure of the Viaduct but I had heard that some of the tunnel had some serious cracks in it so get your pictures of the tunnel soon.

Ken

NJ Vike wrote:
Not sure of the Viaduct but I had heard that some of the tunnel had some serious cracks in it so get your pictures of the tunnel soon.

Ken

Where did you hear that?
I've been through the tunnel a bunch of times and have never seen these cracks. There is'nt even a lot of fallen rock in there.

Scrap The U34CH wrote:

NJ Vike wrote:
Not sure of the Viaduct but I had heard that some of the tunnel had some serious cracks in it so get your pictures of the tunnel soon.

Ken

Where did you hear that?
I've been through the tunnel a bunch of times and have never seen these cracks. There is'nt even a lot of fallen rock in there.

I had heard this on some NJ forum of someone that lives in the area.

Perhaps he thinks that several rock was something to be concerned about?

Who knows.

I plan on going in the fall to take some shots. Right now there's just too much vegetation growing and probably ticks everywhere.

Have you visited the station in Johnsonbugh and Green?

NJ Vike wrote: I had heard this on some NJ forum of someone that lives in the area.

Perhaps he thinks that several rock was something to be concerned about?

Who knows.

I plan on going in the fall to take some shots. Right now there's just too much vegetation growing and probably ticks everywhere.

Have you visited the station in Johnsonbugh and Green?

Sure, A bunch of times. I've been 4 wheelin up there for years.

Come to think of it, The deep cut on the west end of Roseville will need some substancial work, There is a LOT of fallen rock and flooding there. Maybe this is what they were talking about.

Re: Roseville Tunnel

I'm going to assume - admittedly a pure uneducated rail-fan assumption - that the tunnel/mountain is basically sound and not in danger of a major cave-in. It appears to be 90% solid rock but certainly susceptible to occasional flaking.

There are remnants of drill posts ( for stability ) into the hills above both entrances as well as old ( from the 1920's - 1930's ) electrified warning screens ( for rock slides ) on each side of the ROW in the west end cut. Both date back to installation by the Lackawanna. Water run-off certainly bleeds thru both within the tunnel proper as well as over each entranceway. When active ( and likely still nowadays ), large icycles used to form over the entrances in the winter. I'm guessing these were broken up/apart by the cabs/hoods of passing Conrail freights ( as the crew no doubt ducked for cover/safety ! ).

I'd be shocked if we didn't see Roseville Tunnel receive a sturdy brick/concrete liner along with reinforced concrete entrances on both ends similar to what was recently done to the larger/longer ex-DL&W tunnels at West End.

What that'll cost as part of the overall project is TBD....

Tom,

When I was last in the Roseville Tunnel (December) it appeared to be in excellent shape. The exception was a few pieces of concrete that had fallen from the ceiling. You are correct about the icicles, they were over both portals and inside the bore as well. There was also a good deal of seepage which would give credence to your new-liner-for-the-tunnel statement.

There are just a few chunks of fallen rock and concrete in the boar. A small section of the tunnel is concrete lined. The ice is another thing. How do they control this in other tunnels? (Otisville, Pattenburgh) Here's a few pics from last winter. Sorry for the big size.





This last pic was taken from the west end portal. I just included it cause I think it's cool. This cut is over 100 feet deep.

^Nice pictures mike dc!

The book store in Newton on Spring street has only several copies left of:

"A Penny View... an album of postcard views: Building the Lackawanna Cutoff in Sussex and Warren Counties,NJ

The work that went into this project is simply amazing.

There are two other books still in stock at the bookstore in Newton or in the bookstore in Byram (located next to the Shop rite) that has two volumes of "Railroads in Sussex County"

Great old pictures of what the county was like and the trains that ran through the county.

Get them before they're gone.

Ken

was a problem, as were most tunnels, as water always seeps down through and from the rocks unless tunnel is lined and the contraction and expansion of ice and water can cause all kinds of cracks, drops, etc if not constantly tended to; also there were rock slide detector fences--electric fences which when hit by a rock would change signals to red--at least on the west end and maybe the east end approaches fo the tunnel. Cleaning up the area and inspecting by qualified engineers is the only way to get an answer.

henry6 wrote: Cleaning up the area and inspecting by qualified engineers is the only way to get an answer.

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And, even then, the answer may be debatable. The NJT repair work on the DL&W Bergen Tunnels was plagued by poor engineering on what needed to be done, what it would cost, and how long it would take. Much more work, far more dollars, and a year longer time...

I'd suspect the Roseville tunel would be about the same, compounded by very wealthy neighbors in Forest Lake who haven't been supportive of a railroad coming through.

NIMBYS! You'd think it is 1834 not 2004!

It definatly needs rehab if its going to become a main line railroad bridge, but I recently visited Paulines Kill and that bridge, for being abandoned for so long is in much better shape then i though. And its beautiful view from the railbed and the arches underneith the bed. I really hope they take care of that viaduct even if the lackawanna cutoff doesnt happen.

the DL&W's concrete investment was large and strong...a lot of what they poured 100 years ago still bears up while the stuff the contractor did for me two years ago is gone! In Binghamton, NY when they went to clear the bumping blocks out the drilled holes and filled the holes with dynamite. When set off the dynamite took off like an ICBM rather than shatter the block. The contractor who bid on tearing down the columns of the train shed at Scranton cried uncle when it was found that not only was the concrete in which the poles were set was too hard to break apart, but also went down in an inverted "V"! Don't let crumbling surfaces of this cement fool you into thinking its the end of the structure; it really is the begining of a long battle to break it down to take it away. Details about the DL&W, Tom Edison's cement, and Autoclave processing, in Tabers' . books.