Downeast Scenic Railroad (DSRX) Discussion - 2005-2010

This "build it and they will come" attitude is not visionary, it's naive. It takes just as much "vision," forethought and guts- oftentimes more- for a business (railroads included) to withdraw/retrench/embargo/abandon when markets dictate.

I wasn't trying to be sarcastic on the theoretical example (excluding Cherryfield), I was exaggerating to provide you all the basis for making your most optimistic argument about what business would follow the branch's activation. If the ideas (or lack thereof) presented here thus far are the sum total of what's possible, then I'll truly be visionary and think about investing in a Cherryfield-based snowmobile and ATV rental business!

You are all way to smart for me. Heck, I'm just an aircraft engineer. You have such an abundance of experts out there. Maine sounds like another Silicon Valley. Like our neighbors in California. Your so lucky to have such a pool of expertise in one area. Good luck with your Railroad.

Cowford wrote:This "build it and they will come" attitude is not visionary, it's naive. It takes just as much "vision," forethought and guts- oftentimes more- for a business (railroads included) to withdraw/retrench/embargo/abandon when markets dictate.
!

In 2018 when we recall "the good old days" when gas was (only) $4 an hour perhaps we'll regret the opportunities missed with this line and other abandoned RR's.

Yeah, GOOD LUCK with the snowmoblie and ATV economy! It will be great until some numb nut abuses the privilege and ands up getting the trail closed down to motorized vehicles. Seen it happen.....Nice that you can base an economy on something as unpredictable as the weather, but hey.....All the power to ya!

Last month my wife and I stopped by Washington Jct as we had for the previous 3 years, on our annual trip to the peace and quiet of the Seal Cove area on Mt Desert Island.
While in the past things were quiet, this year there has been some notable progress with the arrival of some equipment and evidence of trackwork, including a rather substantial rebuild of a grade crossing.
A couple of volunteers were busy painting a steel caboose, and gave us permission to walk around the grounds. Later we talked with them for awhile about their project.
Although the location is somewhat remote from large year-round population centers, for at least 5 months there is a substantial amount of tourist traffic through the area, and it can be very crowded even in June and September. And with somewhat frequent damp weather, people do look for non-outdoor activities. Cruise ships call at Bar Harbor, and I believe they offer various on shore tour options during their visits.
If the Downeast can tap into this tourist market and keep their operating expenses down, I believe they can succeed. They certainly seem to have been doing their homework in setting the operation up.

Nice that you can base an economy on something as unpredictable as the weather, but hey.....All the power to ya!

From an EPA website: "Weather and climate sensitive industries, both directly and indirectly, account for about one-third of the Nations' GDP, or $3 trillion..."

You guys crack me up. I've asked several times for you to provide evidence to justify reactivation and all I've gotten in response is slightly less than charitable responses. Too bad trains don't move hot air. Oh well, if you ever DO come up with something, post it and I'm sure we can have a good discussion.

Dear Mr. Cowford

I think you have a very reasoned understanding of why it is economically or fiscally foolish to reactivate the Calais Branch for its own sake.

Although there could be a lot of attempts to justify reactivation or rehabilitation of the line for excursion purposes I think that the passenger base is probably still too small and too seasonal for service east of Ellsworth.

What is true is that Washington County has the highest unemployment rate in the State of Maine. Furthermore. speaking in general terms, good transportation infrastructure is also often one of the best means towards achieving excellent localized economic growth. Washington County is both economically depressed and geographically isolated. In some ways Eastern Washington County is more a part of the St. John NB economy than it is that of any part of Maine, including the Bangor Area or even the Aroostok County economic region.

The real problem to a certain extent is a chicken and egg propostion. Infrastructure needs to be in place before the state could even rationally market that area to light industry and commerce that could generate needed jobs and economic revival for Downeast Maine, especially parts east of Ellsworth. If you look at the line reactivation and rehabilitation as a forward looking investment ('visionary'), in the economy of Washington County with an overlay of Pine Tree economic zones and the necessary marketing and support effort from the State's economic development offices then I think you could see that there would be a case for a)rebuilding the line in the first place and b)making it possible for businesses to locate there and use this newly available connection to the national rail grid.

The project is definitely not self-supporting in of itself at present when using a strict short term outlook but that is simply not the model that people are operating on up here. The economic damage from globalized trade and also increased competition from Canadian maritime industry to a much lesser extent has made short term thinking an inevitably unviable means to examine any project. Nothing will pay off in the short term no matter what at this point. Furthermore, the general feeling up here, as I see it, is dead set against construction or extension of anymore interstate highways. Thus having made their choices and now living in them, good people living in small towns up here in Maine and especially Washington county could really see substantial economic growth through a sustainable project such as rehabilitation of the Calais Branch from Ellsworth all the way to Eastport, okay maybe just to Calais for now....

That's why it is a good idea to rebuild the branch. The alternative is casino/racino gambling or some other blight inducing form of 'economic stimulus' that will bring more poverty than it brings jobs. I should furthermore emphasize that any reconstruction of this branch should use a rails with trails model that adds on the East Coast Greenway that is currently under construction. I guess that's enough for now.

gokeefe

GoKeefe, I understand your point, but look at it another way: If you follow that reasoning, then other places in Maine- where there is a viable connection to the national rail grid- should be seeing a steady and continued influx of rail-centric industry. And that's not happening. So other forces must be in play.

And even saying that the region has no rail service is misleading. While Ellsworth and Eastport have no service, Calais and Woodland do. That area actually gets quite adequate service. Granted, access is reliant on foreign interests, but consider this: Freight moving via PAR/NBS-keag PAR actually moves about the same track miles in Maine as via the Calais branch. And being critical of our friends to the north? Other than the typical business spats, I never heard complaints about CN and CP's past participation in the Maine economy. They won't be closing the border any time soon.

Washington County has a lot of issues to grapple with and the County population/government needs to work with the state to set an economic course before anyone can determine the role rail would play - if any. Again, recent votes indicate the population DOES NOT WANT heavy, rail-centric industry.

Dear Mr. Cowford,

I agree with you strongly that other places in Maine that have connections to the national rail grid are not seeing good business. However I have yet to see the state attempt to 'sell' an area based on the construction or existence of a freight corridor. Furthermore, I think that depending on which line you are looking at there are service issues with Pan Am/GRS for local switiching that seem problematic.

What seems to be missing is a comprehensive attempt that addresses many of the issues at hand such as marketing, investment, and tax/economic incentives and stimulus with a focus on Washington County.

However the other real issue is that no matter what the local residents are determined to defend their coastline from industrial development. I think this is a relatively rational impulse on their part because they believe in the long-term of 50-100 years industry can come and go but the damage that it might leave on their scenic coastline would be permanent. That's why the potential for excursion based service with light to moderate freight traffic or even heavy intermodal is so appealing to them because it would provide jobs, preserve the coastline and the ability of the lobstermen to fish and build the creative and tourist economy.

BTW Pan Am I think really does not want to be the local switch they want to be a mainline handling large amounts of locally originating interchange traffic from local feeders for through freight to other parts of the country.

We could just conclude from this that the drive to defend the Calais Branch is really focused on attempts by Washington County to grow their tourist and recreational infrastructure on the coast with a light overlay of industry in pockets here and there they think would support the line. This is really the Rockland Branch model but the problem is that the population density, and tourist infrastructure really drop off after Ellsworth. However the bright spot is that there are so many people who come to Acadia in the first place that there is at least some potential for follow on business. Perhaps the real answer lies not in Ellsworth but in Eastport or Calais where they should be looking at the construction of some kind of ocean terminal that could handle cruise ship traffic.

The security nightmare of LNG would not be an issue nor would they need to be concerned about having their lobster fishery damaged.

There is potential for some kind of follow-on service on the branch for excursions that would then orginate in Eastport, then there could be some kind of exchange between Ellsworth and Eastport via the Calais Branch. More questions than answers...

gokeefe

gokeefe wrote:Pan Am I think really does not want to be the local switch they want to be a mainline handling large amounts of locally originating interchange traffic from local feeders for through freight to other parts of the country.

In other words, Pan Am wants to be a Class I. I think there is a psychological term for that... "delusions of grandeur" perhaps?

Sorry; back to the topic at hand.

Here you go Coword. Like I said, built it, and they will come.
http://pressherald.mainetoday.com/story ... 2&ac=PHnws

Looks like your state means business. I told you Fuel costs will get serious planners moving. You can type up all the congecture you want but the bottom line is reaction to fuel costs for the future are causing actions for today. State of Maine is buying up idle lines to rebuild. If I was Cowford, I would stop with the chatter, sit back and watch rail transportation in action. My guess is Cowford will take his comments, give the world that smug defiant arrogant look, and find other subjects to bestore his great knowledge on.

It is the same picture viewed with scrap metal, Yesterday it ain't worth much why bother. And today??
DSRR has positioned it'self with great timing and if they press on, they will be joined with other entities sharing the same view that are on much bigger scales.
Build it and they willl come.

Ooops, forgot the F. That's Cowford. Did I get that right??

The way I see it, Pan Am R.R was put on notice by the State of Maine to get their act seriously together or loose their lines in said State. Any bets that will be a key movitator set in motion to resurrect rail transportation? Pieces of the puzzle are grouping to fit.

Folks, Rail service will be the next boom.

rockyroad........

We all now know just how much background certain people have on the subject from all the back patting......You find them lurking everywhere on sites like these. Glass is always half empty. Personally, I'm done battling with people who are dead fixed on average numbers and statistics. They are set in their opinions and will battle with anyone who doesn't agree without "pencil facts" to back it up. Hey, let them. Last time I checked, it's only a forum. In MY "outside the experts" opinion, we wouldn't even have half the modern existing railroad structure if we always followed the status quo and did everything by the book. Hot air.......I can bend over and give them plenty

On the voting record for Washington County, I'd be stubborn as hell, too, if I was basically ignored by the rest of the state most of the time. The only instances they seem to get attention for are when the State government wants to shove some sort of legislation up their a--es. It's not like the politicians actually care about that area on average. You live out there, and the people are a whole different group then what they're portrayed as. Their opinions go along the same road. Other distant folk making decisions on their future based on numbers is not appreciated by many in downeast Maine; not just WC. The experts should go door to door like some of us have. There, unfortunately is no way to save the entire Calais Branch now. Both parties have worked hard for their pieces of the pie. At least the tracks won't sit rotting in limbo for yet another year of waiting for a decision on their fate.

Ok, this is deteriorating rapidly. I'm done.