VIA to scrap unfinished Renaissance cars

My understanding is that its not just the weight of the cars themselves that won't make then FRA compliant but also many other small things such as the lighting system but I am not 100% sure.

yes lighting is one thing as well , so is loading gauge, handicap accessibility, etc. there are a number of things but most importantly is the weight and crash worthiness. For the FRA those two thing are a make it or break it deal.

Well that's one reason why the FRA governs US rail passenger travel and VIA can operate the Renaissance cars without having to worry about the FRA. If the Renaissance cars came into US territory, that would cause the FRA to put their requirements on the cars.

exactly as jp has said. FRA is a US organization and has no power to govern VIA's rails train practices, but if VIA wanted to lets say run a train from Toronto to buffalo ( BY Niagara falls) so Canadian riders could have access to empire service trains and Chicago bound trains, where as the VIA train wouldn't even be on US soil for more than 10 miles of trackage, they would need to pass FRA requirements.

Well, for that sitation, the FRA might offer an waiver since that particular track is lightly used by freight so a low chance of collision but its hard to say otherwise.

They would probably first in any consideration for a waiver look at why Transport Canada allowed their operation since Transport Canada and the FRA have almost verbatim rules and regulations.


BTW, the weight of the original Nightstar cars were about 51 tons.

Hey agent that actually its a good idea.. I could see it myself for that's what I would do, since the Renaissance cars weight 50 tons =112000 lbs which is just short of what the FRA require for previous built rolling stock 115000 I believe ( note: that's why amfleet cars weigh around 116000). This new tier 1 and 2 requirement unfortunately would mean some heavier weighted cars and/or major reinforcement and crumple zones If the FRA decided to treat these cars as new. But as you said its lightly used trackway there should be some clause to allow them that 10 mile leeway if lets say they keep the train to under 50 mph on US trackway to minimize possible collision damage. Too bad the FRA is less flexible than Canada or European (UIC) regulators.

Kills me to hear (as I've been hearing) the unfinished Renaissance car shells are heading to the scrapper. VIA could really use some of these cars for either an extra diner, sleepers, service cars, transition cars, or coaches of some sort. I also think VIA was short-sighted in cancelling its overnight corridor service from Montreal to Toronto. They really needed the service in some combination of Quebec City - Montreal - Ottawa - Toronto.

Unfortunately, for the high speed Edmonton-Calgary route that VIA has talked about for years, would now require completely new train sets, where if they finished off some Renaissance cars, they could have potentially put them in service out there. The Canadian, now needing four train sets to operate under the new schedule also puts plans for a Calgary-Vancouver train even more remote than what it was before (yes I know all about the issues it would have to deal with in terms of CP and Rocky Mountaineer's stronghold on the route).

From an American standpoint, the Renaissance cars are most certainly not ADA compliant. I'm truly amazed that Canada doesn't have a stringent legal framework for handicapped accessibility, unlike the the United States.

The Renaissance cars suffer from the limitations of the narrow British loading gauge, and beyond the obvious accessibility issues, I would also question their overall safety within the context of North American railroading.

In the United States, this equipment would never have been put in service to begin with due to the certainty of an ADA lawsuit. Personally, I doubt that the Renaissance cars would be eligible for the same sort of FRA waiver that was received for the Cascades Talgo sets.

VIA should really consider the safety and handicapped accessibility issues of the Renaissance fleet, and then budget for long term replacements that are FRA and ADA compliant. It might be time for VIA to explore a Viewliner order now that Amtrak seems set to reopen production.

goodnightjohnwayne wrote:From an American standpoint, the Renaissance cars are most certainly not ADA compliant. I'm truly amazed that Canada doesn't have a stringent legal framework for handicapped accessibility, unlike the the United States.

The Renaissance cars suffer from the limitations of the narrow British loading gauge, and beyond the obvious accessibility issues, I would also question their overall safety within the context of North American railroading.

In the United States, this equipment would never have been put in service to begin with due to the certainty of an ADA lawsuit. Personally, I doubt that the Renaissance cars would be eligible for the same sort of FRA waiver that was received for the Cascades Talgo sets.

VIA should really consider the safety and handicapped accessibility issues of the Renaissance fleet, and then budget for long term replacements that are FRA and ADA compliant. It might be time for VIA to explore a Viewliner order now that Amtrak seems set to reopen production.

Well, on the federal level, I always got the impression that accessibility mandates were rather weak, but on the provincial level (Ontario especially), its just the same as the ADA here in the states. Maybe one of the other Canadians can chime in on that.

VIA was actually SUED by the Council of Canadians with Disabilities over the fact the Transport Minister said the cars would be accessible but VIA just ended up not being modified for such. CCD won the lawsuit and VIA modded the cars (which I heard impressed Alstrom).

Doesn't the Renaissance "Service Car" contain an area just for handicap people? There's a huge space in this car that I thought would accommodate handicap people overnight, if not for daytime as well, since most Renaissance consists also carry this service car. Granted the Renaissance coaches don't contain a very well secured handicap area. The old CP Budd Stainless Steel cars operated on the Canadian seemed to have escaped the lawsuit to a degree, based on being "grandfathered" in.

jp1822 wrote:Doesn't the Renaissance "Service Car" contain an area just for handicap people? There's a huge space in this car that I thought would accommodate handicap people overnight, if not for daytime as well, since most Renaissance consists also carry this service car. Granted the Renaissance coaches don't contain a very well secured handicap area. The old CP Budd Stainless Steel cars operated on the Canadian seemed to have escaped the lawsuit to a degree, based on being "grandfathered" in.

Yes, the Service Car has the Accessible Accommodation Suite which I think is a good deal. There's also standard places for tiedowns and what not in the train. This was what VIA had to install because of the lawsuit.

AgentSkelly wrote:

jp1822 wrote:Doesn't the Renaissance "Service Car" contain an area just for handicap people? There's a huge space in this car that I thought would accommodate handicap people overnight, if not for daytime as well, since most Renaissance consists also carry this service car. Granted the Renaissance coaches don't contain a very well secured handicap area. The old CP Budd Stainless Steel cars operated on the Canadian seemed to have escaped the lawsuit to a degree, based on being "grandfathered" in.

Yes, the Service Car has the Accessible Accommodation Suite which I think is a good deal. There's also standard places for tiedowns and what not in the train. This was what VIA had to install because of the lawsuit.

I am pretty sure the Service Car always had this accommodation. Anything extra in the coaches I think are a result of the lawsuit etc.

AgentSkelly wrote:
Yes, the Service Car has the Accessible Accommodation Suite which I think is a good deal.

Actually, wasn't this area formerly intended as an immigration holding cell?

I really don't think that putting a single room in what amounts to a lounge car is a way of answering accessibility concerns?

If I remember correctly, for full ADA compliance, Amtrak had to provide accessible accommodations in every sleeping car and coach.

Hello friends...Well All Via Rail Renaissance equipment is planned to be upgraded to meet full handicap accessibility needs as the Canadian government is finally kicking in some well needed funds...

goodnightjohnwayne wrote: . From an American standpoint, the Renaissance cars are most certainly not ADA compliant. I'm truly amazed that Canada doesn't have a stringent legal framework for handicapped accessibility, unlike the the United States.
. I would also question their overall safety within the context of North American railroading.
. In the United States, this equipment would never have been put in service to begin with due to the certainty of an ADA lawsuit. Personally, I doubt that the Renaissance cars would be eligible for the same sort of FRA waiver that was received for the Cascades Talgo sets.
. VIA should really consider the safety and handicapped accessibility issues of the Renaissance fleet, and then budget for long term replacements that are FRA and ADA compliant. It might be time for VIA to explore a Viewliner order now that Amtrak seems set to reopen production.

Well G.N.J.Wayne that's just it, its not American ! So from an American standpoint it means nothing to Canada. Remember ADA stands for AMERICANS WITH DISABILITIES, not Canadians. Canada does have there own disabilities act but its not as screwed up as the new one we just got in the USA. If interpreted by some, It could mean that Amtrak need to get rid of ALL there current mismatch boarding height rolling stock and purchase ALL uniformed equipment across the board, which Just can't & won't happen.
...There actually pretty safe equipment in contrast to other light weight cars, Just no reinforced crumple zones that would let them run with US freight traffic.
...It could be put into service in the US, just not with Amtrak... It would clear acceptance on any line separated from freight trains and NOT need a MAS over 79mph. Only problem is we don't have any such lines in the USA except for Mass transit ( NYCTA, CTA, Metro, etc). Although the cars were built for 125 mph service in the UK. In Canada they limit it to 110 and in the USA we would limit it to 79 even though they were originally built to go faster.
...They could get a FRA waiver, not essentially the same one the Talgos have, but one that's just not for use with Amtrak as there routes have to meet certain guidelines because they share ROWs with freight traffic.
...VIA bought these cars for the retirement of older rolling stock and to expand there fleet beyond what was currently on hand for the need for new equipment was eminent. If you know the history behind the Renaissance cars is that VIA purchased them for a steal of a deal ! roughly about 1 million per car vs. the actual cost price of 3 million. Looking at it that way, spending a meager 100k-200k per car afterwords to upgrade it for your own handicap compliance makes a lot of seance compared to what you just saved. The Only thing they didn't fully anticipate was the severe cold weather effects of Canada on these cars. I don't think Canada (VIA RAIL) will ever look into buying the same rolling stock that Amtrak is purchasing unless there given an offer they just cant refuse, Like the one they got on the Renaissance cars. Given that the Renaissance Cars are not going anywhere unless the UK want to buy them back. Now AMTK & VIA purchasing Locomotives together I could see that happening but with VIA's now in process F40 rebuild project that too is unlikely.

jp1822 wrote:Kills me to hear (as I've been hearing) the unfinished Renaissance car shells are heading to the scrapper. VIA could really use some of these cars for either an extra diner, sleepers, service cars, transition cars, or coaches of some sort. I also think VIA was short-sighted in cancelling its overnight corridor service from Montreal to Toronto. .

JP I agree with you... and not but a few days ago I saw a news report on VIA Rail with there new found funding is looking into bring the train back. It was said One more train is needed on the Toronto - Montreal run but its not certain if it will be a day time run or a overnight service.

goodnightjohnwayne wrote:

AgentSkelly wrote: Yes, the Service Car has the Accessible Accommodation Suite which I think is a good deal.

Actually, wasn't this area formerly intended as an immigration holding cell?
.

Actually funny enough the service car was originally intended to be the Customs/ Immigration car for the UK, so Im sure somewhere there was a space for a holding cell at one point.

I hate to say, but I seemed to find that the Montreal-Toronto corridor was best traversed with an overnight schedule! It was such a smooth ride - when moving that is - with the Renaissance sleepers. Among route problems, it's just that 11:30 p.m. was probably too late of a departure from either city. If they made a side trip to Ottawa or continued on to Quebec City with this overnight train, while pushing the departure to like 8:30 p.m. or something, that would be much better! I'd still like to see the overnight train arrive into Toronto or Montreal at or around 8:00 a.m. (if heading on to Quebec) or pushed to perhaps a time before 9:00 a.m. if heading to Ottawa.