VIA to scrap unfinished Renaissance cars

I cant speak over long distance trips on VIA as all my experiences have been in the corridor but I agree with you timberley the RENs are well and better suited for the corridor vs. the Budds. The LRCs are in my opinion just as good as the REN's and also well suited for corridor use only. I think one thing we can all agree on is the scrapping of the RENs remaining fleet is a big mistake. Im sure they can find a way to make a new modified first class car( since current first class REN seating is the same as coach) or something out of the shells. And to Gaspe the cost from what I remember per car including shipping to canada was roughly 1 million per car (2002). Finishing them and modifications after they got to Canada was the extra cost (couple $100,000 per car). The renaissance cars were originally priced for $3-4 million a piece.

In the issue of customer service on the train Gaspe I believe you just lucked out and got the unfortunate one disgruntle VIA employee on the trip, but by far this happens less often on VIA than Amtrak in comparison of my 100s of trips. Id be careful the french VIA rail attendants are the worst, Im pretty sure that the one you got. there have been times Ive missed trains and VIA' rail went out of there way to help me or get me to make a connection at no cost( maybe just because I travel so often and most of them know me) the same could be said for Amtrak but they hardly ever go out of there way except for maybe in the NEC.

NS VIA FAN wrote:

jp1822 wrote:That price for an Enterprise sleeper was completly off base. I am not even sure if 1/2 the cost would have been right......

Yes the fares being quoted above are way off! I rode the Enterprise several times and checked back through some old tickets. The most I paid was $235. for single occupancy of a double bedroom. This included the rail fare + room charge and was the full fare, day of travel.....no discount.

No way would the “up-grade” fare for two be $500 > $600. as the rail fare portion must have already been paid . And upgrading aboard the train happens all the time.....must have hit a crew member having a bad day (something more common on Amtrak.....not VIA!)

I’m going to Montreal next week on the Ocean and glad I no longer have to adjust my travel dates to avoid riding the Budd equipment. I’m guaranteed a Renaissance consist both ways now with the three consists back in service. I was on a Budd Ocean both ways to/from Montreal in February and it had to be the worst trip ever. This equipment is getting old and now 15+ years since the last major rebuilding. It was shake and rattle all night with little sleep in the Chateau Bedroom. How I wished for the smooth riding Rens!

Sure the Rens have had problems but look at the LRCs when they first entered service and the problems in the early ‘90s when the whole fleet had to be pulled from service for many days. But they are now the back-bone of the corridor fleet and will be for many years with the recently announced rebuilding contract.

The prices were not way off. I just realised why they were so hi. I had my niece with on the trip and she was travelling for free with that Via promotion if the child is 12 or something they go for free with and adult but you couldn't upgrade to first class or the they would nail you big time. But via was going to charge me for her coach fare and and accomodation charge to if i remember correctly which i thought was Excessive Sorry about the mix-up in the pricing, it's called memory loss as you get older!
Overall i do find Amtrak fares overall a lot cheaper than Via's fares although Via has been having some good promotions lately.B

Since this post got started anyone Have a update on the shells as the year approaches an end...

Have they been scrapped?
Any left in storage?
were any sold or donated?
ETC.

HERE'S HOPING THIS THREAD ISN'T DEAD-------
I have an eye-witness update for you on the 33 Rens that were to be "scrapped" "shipped east" etcetc:
As of april 14, 2012(over 3 years since the CKRP/ThunderBay news flash), all 33 Ren "shells" are intact and lying comatose
in some marshland near Keefer Terminal, about 300 yards inland from Lake Superior. You can confirm this with Google Maps
by asking for 184 110 Avenue, Thunder Bay, ON. The satellite view will allow you to count all 33 cars. Yes, the trucks appear to have
been removed, and the cars do not seem to be sitting on any trackage. There is an inactive spur a few yards away from the fenced-in
collection.
I happened upon them while visiting TBay on holiday and had hoped to find them all cozy in a barn in the CN Neebing yards, a mile or two from
the Bombardier Transportation factory where the other 100+ Rens were renovated. While driving through an old Ukrainian neighborhood near the
lake, I took this single roadway out into a marshy area, and suddenly I spotted the Rens basking in the noonday sun, particle-board sheets covering
some end entrances(others not). They are in nice neat tight formation, seven across and four deep, grasses and weeds closing in on all sides. I
took some digital camera pix but haven't figured out how to upload them(technologically-challenged)--but they're just average quality anyhow.
One thing for sure: these are not all sleeper shells. You can tell that from the Google Maps street-level views as well as my personal look-see.
At my advanced age, I did NOT venture over the fence past the NO TRESPASSING signs--perhaps it's time for a local railfan to get permission to
"inspect" this "scrap" which I think looks excellent considering it's been sitting stock still for at least four harsh ThunderBay winters. Probably a lot of
bird/animal damage. Oh, by the way--the last 5 cars are askew in a row furthest from the road--so the total is indeed 33.
In case you cannot tell, this is my first posting to railroad.net--I was raised in a railroad town in Wisconsin(3 major lines CNW,SooLine,MilwRoad) so
the train-nut thing goes all the way back to infancy. I rode the Canadian with my wife of 4 decades in a double suite about three years ago, Toronto to
Jasper, and then took Rocky Mountaineer down the Fraser Valley to Whistler and Vancouver. Truly the event of a lifetime end-to-end. God willing, we'll
repeat at least some segments of that adventure again sometime soon.

Welcome to railroad.net quark9011, and thanks for providing your first-hand update of the situation. Although the unfinished Renaissance cars are still in Thunder Bay and not cut up, I don't think there's much chance they'll be put to use any time soon.

What a waste , too bad theyre too long for NZ service , otherwise i'm sure somebody would buy and import them here . We are still buying br MK2 carriages and rebuilding them . one possible market , Australia , to bolster thier mark 3 equipped hst train sets

David Benton wrote:What a waste , too bad theyre too long for NZ service , otherwise i'm sure somebody would buy and import them here . We are still buying br MK2 carriages and rebuilding them . one possible market , Australia , to bolster thier mark 3 equipped hst train sets

I thought these unfinished Renaissance cars were sleepers and would be very expensive to convert into coaches, which is why VIA is not finishing them. Sleepers on Australia HST train sets doesn't look like a wise investment to me, unless Australia decided to use these sleepers shells with with their existing HST coaches to modernize their long distance train services replacing old 50's era Budds.
With all the problems VIA's chosen vendor is having updating the LRC cars, maybe they should reevaluate their decision to scrap these. What do you think?

quark9011 wrote:
One thing for sure: these are not all sleeper shells. You can tell that from the Google Maps street-level views as well as my personal look-see.
...

According to the Trackside Guide, 30 of the shells are sleepers and the other three are service cars. It's a pity there aren't some coach shells because VIA could use them, there being several LRC cars locked inside the IRSI plant in Moncton and others damaged in the recent derailment in Burlington. During the last Christmas season there were a lot of potential passengers who could not get on Toronto-Windsor trains because there were no extra coaches available. For example, train #73 normally ran with its usual four cars (One Business Class and three economy) and VIA staff told me they could have easily filled another coach or two.

Ron , the Australian hst's already have sleeper compartments in some coaches .
These are basically british rail mk4 shells , from what i read . british companies are now scrapping mk3 coaches as they come off lease agreements , some real bargains can be had .

David Benton wrote:Ron , the Australian hst's already have sleeper compartments in some coaches .
These are basically british rail mk4 shells , from what i read . british companies are now scrapping mk3 coaches as they come off lease agreements , some real bargains can be had .

302 Mk4s were built 1989 - 1992 with maximum speeds of 140 mph. 848 Mk3s were built 1975 - 1988 with maximum speeds of 125 mph.

VIA has some modified Mk4s (Renaissance) and many customers prefer riding the Budds or LRCs because they're wider and ride better on Canadian (American) class 4 (80 mph) rails.

The early Mk3s are 35 years old. Why would anyone want to buy them, except for Australia for the reasons I suggested before, to replace even older Budd railcars in long distance service. Would like to point out the Australia's plates matches American plates closer, which is why they are still using American designed diesel locomotives and Budd railcars. Having sleeping compartments in some coaches isn't the same thing as having all sleepers cars.

The Budds are all stainless steel, UK Mk3s and Via's Mk4s aren't. There might be a reason why UK train operators are dropping Mk3s, and I suggest it might be high maintenance bills upcoming to refurbish them.

The Renaissance cars are not "true" Mk-4's,they were built for "NiteStar" service thru the "Chunnel" and had to clear what was BR and SCNF
profiles to run on international services.
A lot of the Mk-3's have been "rehabbed" a few times by the various "TOC's" to suit their needs,it's possible that the "preservation" railways
(tourist lines ) will snap up a good lot of the cars.

I get the "feeling" VIA doesn't have a "backshop" along the lines of Amtrak's Beech Grove, being dependent on
"contract" shops for heavy repairs/overhauls of the fleet.

I didnt mean to drag the conversation away from the Renaissance cars , so back to them . i still think , with the experience Via has had with the renaissance cars , they should be able to put the shells to good use . but if that experience has gone to 3rd parties , then yes , maybe it would be too expensive to start again .

Even if these cars were not converted into sleepers, I think there is a general need for Renaissance baggage, transition, and even dining cars. If one of the dining cars on the Ocean gets wrecked, God forbid, VIA would likely have to cannabilize an existing Renaissance service car or sleeper to get a replacement. It always surprised me that more Renaissance service cars and an additional Renaissance diner was not built (as backups). And sure the Rennaisance cars could make for some sort of first class service, even as a regular "lounge" car on the long distance Ocean, as the Renaissance service cars fall way short of filling this void when a Budd Park Car is not tacked onto the rear. I am sure some modifiation could have been made to the windows.

VIA did have plans to also convert the train to/from Gaspe into a Renaissance train. But this did not come about largely because of the switching issues, so I was told. Course I think the Gaspe train should operate seperate from the Ocean, but thats another story - and so is the Gaspe train in general (running over its enture route). But if an additional Renaissance transition car was put in place, this could have been made possible. And that's not to say the "transition car" needed to be completely "hollow" or empty inside (as most are). Perhaps it could have sported some sort of lounge or sleeping car space. However, I am glad the train to Gaspe stayed as a Budd stainless steel train with Skyline Dome etc.

I am sure there are options VIA could have done with these cars, but money constraints, and even current issues with the Renaissance fleet (long distance Ocean consist particularly) likely prevented completion of these cars. VIA likely could have even made a first class "day room" out of these cars to ply the corridor.

Does anyone on this site have contacts at Bombardier or VIA Rail HQ(even VIA-Winnipeg might do)?
I'd like to get permission to get inside the fence and press my nose against the windows of some of these Ren cars in the marsh at Thunder Bay.
I want to see what 30 million bucks laying in the grass really looks like. From their location it sure appears that their shipment "down east" has been
cancelled(WHY?) as they would need to be transported by truck to a boat dock or even to any rail flatbeds from where they are now. It might be fun
to enter a "shell" or two--some appear to be open on the ends--might even be a window or two missing.
One of the other gentlemen on this site said that he believes Bombardier owns this field, which is a couple kilometers from the industrial site for
Bombardier Transportation, and is next to some Keefer Terminal property, but no ownership is shown on the "no trespass" signs on the fencing.
There's an old saying about "spending money to save money" and this surely looks like one of those situations. Anybody got a few million to
spare? maybe some Rens could be converted to private-car status and sold off to recoup some of the govt's investment.
For a decent aerial view of the site and some ground-level close-ups(but not close enough for me!), you can GoogleMap 184 110 Avenue, Thunder
Bay, ON .
If anyone visits the area, please share a report.

quark9011 wrote:HERE'S HOPING THIS THREAD ISN'T DEAD-------
I have an eye-witness update for you on the 33 Rens that were to be "scrapped" "shipped east" etcetc:
As of april 14, 2012(over 3 years since the CKRP/ThunderBay news flash), all 33 Ren "shells" are intact and lying comatose
in some marshland near Keefer Terminal, about 300 yards inland from Lake Superior. .

OH MY GOD...THEY STILL DO EXIST!!!!!

welcome to the forum Quark and that definitely was a great catch. You have me here doing Google, Bing , and Yahoo maps to get a better view of the cars. I wonder if VIA would be interested in selling them now that we know there still around, the only issue I have is they cannibalized them for there trucks ( probably for the running fleet as spare parts) which makes these semi useless.