Jetro Cash & Carry - could they be any more anti-rail?

How sure can you be that Jetro doesn't use rail? Plenty of refrigerated cars come into Oak Point and get transferred to the local warehouses. They probably buy from the vendor/specialists at Oak Point. Maybe a freightcar full of one veggie is too much for Jetro to handle at a time...

After skimming thru an old LIRR ETT,there are some places that cannot take any cars 70 ft long,some of the branches are good for 210k only.
What makes me wonder why NY+A hasn't try to market intermodel using spine cars to/from Farmingdale/Pineaire area up to
Selkirk NY?(forget about the tunnels to NJ,FedDOT,AMTK wont allow Haz-Mat loads).
That could take some ofthe truck traffic off I-495. The spine cars should clear MNR+LIRR 3rd rail and plate E.

" jayrmli wrote:West of Fresh Pond the Lower Montauk is only cleared for Plate C cars, meaning any of those boxcars with the white strip at the top can't fit under the M line subway bridge or probably the overbuild west of Fresh Pond. All if the LIRR has a weight limit on cars of 263,000 lbs.



Once again, not true. Take a look at the first boxcar in this train. Clearly a high-cube, shot in Deer Park:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SNZQ3JkDjTA"

You copy my text exactly, and then show a video from somewhere else on the system to try to prove your point. Any excess height car like the one shown in your video needs special clearance from the LIRR Engineering Department before movement. When such movement is granted, it is also route specific, as not everywhere in the system has clearance for such cars. Your original post was regarding the old Phelps Dodge property along the lower Montauk, which there is physically no way to get a car of that size there due to overhead clearance. Some crews from both LIRR and NYAR have tried in the past...and all have failed miserably.

You also ask that I not pull that "jingoistic "This is America"" stuff, but in the very next paragraph you go into the pro-rail talking points about "taking trucks off the road, less than 1% use rail, etc." The fact is there are many factors for a business to decide whether or not to use rail, and the logistics are more complex than any government bean counter to figure out. I know it's hard to fathom in a nanny state like New York City, which goes crazy if there's a salt shaker on the table in a restaurant, but most businesses prefer to operate without some hack telling them what they can and can't do. Check your history books and you'll find that over-regulation against the railroads is what put them all in bankruptcy a few decades back, and why trucks now have a stranglehold on the highways.

jayrmli wrote:" jayrmli wrote:West of Fresh Pond the Lower Montauk is only cleared for Plate C cars, meaning any of those boxcars with the white strip at the top can't fit under the M line subway bridge or probably the overbuild west of Fresh Pond. All if the LIRR has a weight limit on cars of 263,000 lbs.



Once again, not true. Take a look at the first boxcar in this train. Clearly a high-cube, shot in Deer Park:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SNZQ3JkDjTA"

You copy my text exactly, and then show a video from somewhere else on the system to try to prove your point. Any excess height car like the one shown in your video needs special clearance from the LIRR Engineering Department before movement. When such movement is granted, it is also route specific, as not everywhere in the system has clearance for such cars. Your original post was regarding the old Phelps Dodge property along the lower Montauk, which there is physically no way to get a car of that size there due to overhead clearance. Some crews from both LIRR and NYAR have tried in the past...and all have failed miserably.

You also ask that I not pull that "jingoistic "This is America"" stuff, but in the very next paragraph you go into the pro-rail talking points about "taking trucks off the road, less than 1% use rail, etc." The fact is there are many factors for a business to decide whether or not to use rail, and the logistics are more complex than any government bean counter to figure out. I know it's hard to fathom in a nanny state like New York City, which goes crazy if there's a salt shaker on the table in a restaurant, but most businesses prefer to operate without some hack telling them what they can and can't do. Check your history books and you'll find that over-regulation against the railroads is what put them all in bankruptcy a few decades back, and why trucks now have a stranglehold on the highways.

HAHA... so your only retort against me is trying to veer the topic from economic development incentives for Jetro to the technicalities of moving a Plate F boxcar on Long Island? Pretty sad...

High Cube boxcars, particularly insulated, are primarily used for paper service and construction materials that need protection from the elements... last time I checked, there wasn't an active newspaper plant on Long Island that received paper rolls by rail, and lumber products move on centerbeams and can also move in boxcars, both standard height and Plate F. So it's a moot point. Based on the industries on Long Island, there isn't a dying need for excess height cars to begin with, further eroding your point. As jtunnel mentioned, the TOFC/COFC concept is interesting, and putting standard shipping containers on articulated spine cars (ala CN) would be the only way to bring intermodal to the island. TOFC might work, but only with sufficient clearance. TOFC is a dying concept anyway, as full-blown containerization (both international and domestic) is pretty much supplanting the TOFC concept, slowly but surely. We all know well cars wouldn't work (third rail), and double stacking is out of the question as we all know. The only option we have are single-stacking containers on spine cars or 89' flats.

For most practical purposes, and based on the commodities Long Island receives, standard height boxcars work just fine. Centerbeams, bulkhead flats, MSW flats, C&D gondolas, tank cars, box cars (yes, even Plate F), covered hoppers, open hoppers, and more are all capable of making it to Long Island without a problem, both in terms of third rail or vertical clearance. This is fact; it isn't even open for debate. Yes, there are a few technicalities here and there, but the main point (and the reason for my post) is that NYC and LI are not aggressively promoting the use of freight rail with economic incentives and "incubator zones" like they should. Instead, most New Yorkers are ignorantly content with keeping the warehousing/distribution functions in New Jersey, completely unaware that they are paying the price by sitting in traffic and breathing noxious fumes that would otherwise be mitigated if freight rail were a larger part of New York's logistics picture.

No one is reinventing the wheel here, I read a few of the studies of the LIRR proposals to privatize the freight franchise from the early to mid nineties. All these things were brought up and looked at before and then again. One of the major things people don't realize if the Port Authority's reign on truck traffic. All those trucks cross the rivers at such a lucrative rate no major incentive to convert to steel wheels and lose the toll money. I just cant see TOFC making it here with all the large terminals 30/ 40 miles away in North Jersey.

From a former marketing/ operations manager point of view; the big focus of an established NYAR system was to be food products in and waste( related materials) out. Kind of halfway there with all the C&D moves off the island. Garbage excluding WMX has yet to make a significant impact yet. Even in those freight studies from what is so long ago now, the LI economy shift from manufacturing to a service economy was well along the way. However certain constraints do restrict alot of potential freights moves on and off the island. The major growth oppurtunites lie in Queens and Suffolk where there is room for expansion. Nassau's rail freight is virtually nonexistent and look at the shape the county is in.

I think now though there is certainly more attention being paid in the downstate region to the benefits of rail freight.

" by freightguy » Tue May 22, 2012 2:30 am
One of the major things people don't realize if the Port Authority's reign on truck traffic. All those trucks cross the rivers at such a lucrative rate no major incentive to convert to steel wheels and lose the toll money. I just cant see TOFC making it here with all the large terminals 30/ 40 miles away in North Jersey. "

Quote button did not work. Now that NYNJ Rail is owned by PA NY/NJ there might there be an incentive change? With NYA's contract coming up soon, might PA NY/NJ try to get rights to/ownership of Bay Ridge branch - connect directly with CSX & PW at Fresh Pond? (CP not run there anymore, but still rights?)

Agree TOFC not solution (unless allowed to put container on trailer then onto a flat car), but COFC/spine car could be over 3rd rail track. Real problem is getting across NY Harbor/Hudson River in a reliable and timely manor - tunnel best but VERY expensive, with only 2 points ferries better/faster than barges but still at mercy of water...

Belmont gets tall boxcars regularly.

And Fresh Direct's move to the bronx sadly is nothing but corporate welfare.

As for these Cures people and their paranoia that maspeth will become a huge intermodal terminal... we all know they are clinically insane. The proof of that is in their badgering of CSX to not run to fresh pond during daylight hours on weekdays so their brats at the high school next to the tracks don't have to hear trains... but every other neighborhood along the line gets an early morning wake up call.

NYCS, Jay worked for NYA. He knows of what he speaks. You can take it as gospel.

When does the NYAR contract expire?

By contract, if you mean their freight concession to operate LIRR freight, the agreement was a 20 year lease with an option for 10 more. The 20 year lease will expire around 2017 according to the current terms.

Teutobergerwald wrote:NYCS, Jay worked for NYA. He knows of what he speaks. You can take it as gospel.

That's great, but does that mean he necessarily knows about economic development, corporate incentives, incubator zones, job creation incentives and a host of other tools municaplities use to shape neighborhoods according to a conceived master plan? I've actually worked in economic develpoment positions, and it is my ardent position that NYC and LI can do more to attract freight rail to the island - there are a million reasons to do so.

Lets you forget, this was the original purpose of this thread (NYC permitting Jetro to build on valuable rail-accessible land) before it was sidetracked by the technicalities of a Plate F boxcar being able to reach Long Island. Fortunately, things are improving and I do see a bright future for freight rail in NYC and LI. (Brookhaven, new yard at Pineaire, Calverton redevelopment, etc.)

However, I don't mean to start an argument here. Just wondering if anyone knew the inside culture of Jetro. (incidentally, Manhattan Beer is moving into Jetro's old warehouse at Oak Point. Manhattan Beer is a MAJOR rail customer)

freightguy wrote: The major growth oppurtunites lie in Queens and Suffolk where there is room for expansion. Nassau's rail freight is virtually nonexistent and look at the shape the county is in.

Unfortunately, Queens has few growth opportunities, which is why this thread started. The Phelps Dodge site is one of extremely few large empty spaces within Queens where any sort of freight facility could have been built without significant disruption (and even then you'd have 'cures' nutcases crying about it). The L.I.C. waterfront is full of overpriced high rise apartments now. Yard A is gone, will eventually be LIRR ESA train storage. The old Ronzoni spur is gone, customers replaced by big box stores. Arch st. now has a currently unused shop for the LIRR consuming half the property, and the other half, while very busy with freight, probably won't last. The MTA will sell it to some real estate developer looking to build another high rise apartment building.

A set of huge warehouses along the old kearney sidings just got bulldozed. Rumor is Fed EX is moving in. I don't see them using freight: land is too small for tofc, which can't go west of FP anyway.

The only real potential new customers in Queens will be the new WM facility somewhere around Blissville or someone taking over Fresh Direct when they move out. That facility would probably be great if there's another customer like the Asian restaurant supply places at Maspeth. Maybe one will move and expand... or someone will buy up that whole strip, pay off a politician to have it rezoned (if that hasn't happened already), and build more overpriced high rises for wealthy naive people.


All of this said, I often wonder what the Port Authority wants with NYNJRR. Maybe they realize they can offset anything they loose in tolls via controlling the RR. With the investment in track on the sunset park waterfront, they're definitely betting on it working out.

" set of huge warehouses along the old kearney sidings just got bulldozed. Rumor is Fed EX is moving in. I don't see them using freight: land is too small for tofc, which can't go west of FP anyway."

I was wondering what was going in near Kearney and the Expressway. I thought that maybe would fall victim to residential development also. I think Typin Steel was the last costumer left maybe into the early 90's off that siding. Amazing how much freight was in that area. A lot of the old buildings still have the loading docks but no sign of track and you can find the occassional bumping block in the middle of nowhere in Degnon terminal. Fed Ex only really got rail savvy a few years back even with the big class one railroads. You're right probably no chane here.

Fresh Direct was on the former site of Case Paper. I actually spotted the last boxcars in there which they used to move material to their Phileadelphia location when they closed around 2000.

DogBert wrote:

freightguy wrote: The major growth oppurtunites lie in Queens and Suffolk where there is room for expansion. Nassau's rail freight is virtually nonexistent and look at the shape the county is in.

Unfortunately, Queens has few growth opportunities, which is why this thread started. The Phelps Dodge site is one of extremely few large empty spaces within Queens where any sort of freight facility could have been built without significant disruption (and even then you'd have 'cures' nutcases crying about it). The L.I.C. waterfront is full of overpriced high rise apartments now. Yard A is gone, will eventually be LIRR ESA train storage. The old Ronzoni spur is gone, customers replaced by big box stores. Arch st. now has a currently unused shop for the LIRR consuming half the property, and the other half, while very busy with freight, probably won't last. The MTA will sell it to some real estate developer looking to build another high rise apartment building.

A set of huge warehouses along the old kearney sidings just got bulldozed. Rumor is Fed EX is moving in. I don't see them using freight: land is too small for tofc, which can't go west of FP anyway.

The only real potential new customers in Queens will be the new WM facility somewhere around Blissville or someone taking over Fresh Direct when they move out. That facility would probably be great if there's another customer like the Asian restaurant supply places at Maspeth. Maybe one will move and expand... or someone will buy up that whole strip, pay off a politician to have it rezoned (if that hasn't happened already), and build more overpriced high rises for wealthy naive people.


All of this said, I often wonder what the Port Authority wants with NYNJRR. Maybe they realize they can offset anything they loose in tolls via controlling the RR. With the investment in track on the sunset park waterfront, they're definitely betting on it working out.

100% agreed. The "gentrification" of New York City by all of these trust fund yuppies has gone WAY too far. The city is neglecting its industrial sector, but can you blame them? You're dealing with a population that - when they hear the word "train" - they automatically think of the 7 Train to Flushing or the subway system. It is woefully unfortunate that New Yorkers have no concept of the value of freight rail (many don't even see freight trains to begin with, hence why most New Yorkers think freight trains died in the late 1800s). The city government and agencies seem to be following the same thought process as its citizens, thinking that retail and residential are the only components of municipal/city planning. It's truly a sad story, and why I believe New York will eventually decline into a third-world city. One can argue it already has...

freightguy wrote:" set of huge warehouses along the old kearney sidings just got bulldozed. Rumor is Fed EX is moving in. I don't see them using freight: land is too small for tofc, which can't go west of FP anyway."

Fresh Direct was on the former site of Case Paper. I actually spotted the last boxcars in there which they used to move material to their Phileadelphia location when they closed around 2000.

According to this, Fed Ex is moving near the (soon to be former) Fresh Direct site. Is this (Borden Avenue) where the old warehouses were torn down?

Also, did Fresh Direct ever use Rail Freight at it's LIC location? The older PFE style 57ft reefers should have been able to meet the route clearences.