Jetro Cash & Carry - could they be any more anti-rail?

NYCS wrote:

Teutobergerwald wrote:NYCS, Jay worked for NYA. He knows of what he speaks. You can take it as gospel.

That's great, but does that mean he necessarily knows about economic development, corporate incentives, incubator zones, job creation incentives and a host of other tools municaplities use to shape neighborhoods according to a conceived master plan? I've actually worked in economic develpoment positions, and it is my ardent position that NYC and LI can do more to attract freight rail to the island - there are a million reasons to do so.

Lets you forget, this was the original purpose of this thread (NYC permitting Jetro to build on valuable rail-accessible land) before it was sidetracked by the technicalities of a Plate F boxcar being able to reach Long Island. Fortunately, things are improving and I do see a bright future for freight rail in NYC and LI. (Brookhaven, new yard at Pineaire, Calverton redevelopment, etc.)

However, I don't mean to start an argument here. Just wondering if anyone knew the inside culture of Jetro. (incidentally, Manhattan Beer is moving into Jetro's old warehouse at Oak Point. Manhattan Beer is a MAJOR rail customer)

I have a 15 year background in the industry, specifically rail freight on Long Island, so I know enough about the industry to know what works and doesn't work. I also have a background in economics and run a successful business.

Your original post on this thread concerned a company that has located their business in Maspeth and is "refusing to use rail." All of the "economic development, incubator zones, etc, etc." can not force a company to use rail shipments, no more than they can force a business to ship a package via UPS over the Post Office. Such micromanaging of a company is a government intrusion on their business, and would at the very least cause the business to leave the area entirely...and what good would that be for the local economy?

If you were to force local businesses located along the right of way to use rail for their shipments, you would wind up forcing a monopoly type situation in the area, and cause the rates they pay to deliver their goods to be raised, just because of the lack of competition. Again, competition fosters lower prices, by removing the competition, you make it less likely for anyone to want to locate there. This is simple economics.

Without knowing anything about Jetro Cash & Carry, I can assume they purchased the property they did because they felt it would give them the best opportunity for their business to succeed. Since real estate located near a railroad line tends to be undesirable to many people, the cost of the land tends to be lower. This is why they would choose to locate their business there. Again, this is simple economics. I highly doubt that there was ever a high level board meeting somewhere where they decided to be "anti-rail," or some type of conspiratorial mandate by the company to kill rail freight in the area.

Again, the choice to use rail freight has such a variety of factors much more than you can realize. Does the products they will be receiving or shipping to also have rail access? What is the distance it is shipping to/from? Would it be more economical to ship via rail or truck? (Despite what you might think, rail is not always cheaper.)

The CURES group has been mentioned in this thread as well, and can be considered a group of zealots that would prefer rail to not be used. They are extreme on one side, and how this discussion has gone you would like to be extreme on the other side. The balance is somewhere in the middle...

I have a 15 year background in the industry, specifically rail freight on Long Island, so I know enough about the industry to know what works and doesn't work. I also have a background in economics and run a successful business.

So you're primarily a locomotive engineer. Have you worked in municpal economic development before? I hope your "business" is somehow involved with the NYCEDC, because that would you be your only saving grace here.

Your original post on this thread concerned a company that has located their business in Maspeth and is "refusing to use rail." All of the "economic development, incubator zones, etc, etc." can not force a company to use rail shipments, no more than they can force a business to ship a package via UPS over the Post Office. Such micromanaging of a company is a government intrusion on their business, and would at the very least cause the business to leave the area entirely...and what good would that be for the local economy?

No one is "forcing" a company to do anything... that's why they are called economic INCENTIVES. Let me say that again, economic INCENTIVES. Reward the companies through a slew of mechanisms such as workforce/job creation INCENTIVES, tax INCENTIVES, and other INCENTIVES to encourage said companies to ship by rail. No one is ruling with an iron fist or forcing a company to do anything, but rather, encouraging.

Here are the definitions for both:

http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/incentives?s=t

http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/encourage?s=t

They might come in handy someday for you...

If you were to force local businesses located along the right of way to use rail for their shipments, you would wind up forcing a monopoly type situation in the area, and cause the rates they pay to deliver their goods to be raised, just because of the lack of competition. Again, competition fosters lower prices, by removing the competition, you make it less likely for anyone to want to locate there. This is simple economics.

Again, refer to the two definitions above. Incubator zones would reward companies who recieve by rail, giving them a leg up above their competition. No monopoly here, and companies who receive by rail would ultimately have the lower prices. This is called simple economic development INCENTIVES. If a company so chooses not to participate and clog New York's roads with trucks with NJ license plates, that's their decision. No one is "forcing" them to do anything, but they should be made aware of the incentives attached to performing their warehousing and distribution by rail... on the island.

Without knowing anything about Jetro Cash & Carry, I can assume they purchased the property they did because they felt it would give them the best opportunity for their business to succeed. Since real estate located near a railroad line tends to be undesirable to many people, the cost of the land tends to be lower. This is why they would choose to locate their business there. Again, this is simple economics. I highly doubt that there was ever a high level board meeting somewhere where they decided to be "anti-rail," or some type of conspiratorial mandate by the company to kill rail freight in the area.

The problem is that all of this land, while you are correct it is cheap, is highly valuable in terms of freight rail development on the island. What if a company wanted to move into Queens or Long Island and receive by rail, only to find that there are no available sites because they are all occupied by companies that don't participate in rail logistics? It is a shame to see this land gobbled up by companies who locate right next to a rail line and don't even bother to utilize rail. Again, we can't force them to receive by rail, but we could ENCOURAGE and INCENTIVIZE them. Again, refer to the two definitions above. And again, this is called simple economic development.

Again, the choice to use rail freight has such a variety of factors much more than you can realize. Does the products they will be receiving or shipping to also have rail access? What is the distance it is shipping to/from? Would it be more economical to ship via rail or truck? (Despite what you might think, rail is not always cheaper.)

When a company who wishes to receive by rail can't find an available site on the geographic island, then it becomes a problem. Rail might not always be the most economical way of shipping in some cases, and in some cases the origin of the load has no rail access either. This is a corporate decision, but stop crowding out the companies that can and will receive by rail. In this case, JETRO wouldn't receive a single dime or tax credit for their decision to locate/expand on the old Phelps Dodge site. They can choose to... this is a free country after all, but to their own detriment because they'd miss out on all the juicy incentives connected to a comprehensive incubator zone master plan.

The CURES group has been mentioned in this thread as well, and can be considered a group of zealots that would prefer rail to not be used. They are extreme on one side, and how this discussion has gone you would like to be extreme on the other side. The balance is somewhere in the middle...

We can all agree on CURES, but with geographic Long Island receiving anywhere between 1% and 2% of its freight by rail, it is a shame and an embarrasment. That is why I am ardent proponent of rail: less traffic, less pollution, less wear and tear on the region's roadway infrastructure, and ultimately... lower prices for the consumer market should rail be the most economical mode in any given case, and the savings are passed on to the consumer.

How long have you been working in economic development? I applaud you that your business is working closely with the NYCEDC and making the case for rail... or is it? The ultimate irony is that you are a locomotive engineer, yet you're trying to pull anything you can out of your hat to try and mitigate rail-based development on the island? Are you bi-polar?

What my "business" is is my business. I don't know who you are or what you are about, so I will not go into it anymore than that. Your replies on this thread, particularly towards me are malevolent to say the least, and aren't worthy of replying to further. As I stated, I've been in the business for approximately 15 years and have experienced more than just being an engineer. I have assisted in rail freight marketing and worked with those who try to market to potential customers on Long Island. That being said, if I only did it for one hour, it is apparently one hour's worth more real time experience in this field than you have probably been exposed to. I am in no way trying to "mitigate rail based development on the Island," as you claim. I have always championed it, however from my experience and knowledge of what is involved, I know what is and isn't possible, so I won't make wild claims on here that have a snowball's chance in hell of happening. I, my friend, am a realist.

NYCS, businesses that want to be served by rail will get it, either by their own spur or at a teamyard. Some businesses want nothing to do with it. What difference does it make to you? And to attack Jay and question his knowledge is way, way out of line. As I said earlier, having worked for NYA, he knows of what he speaks, so leave it at that. Pose real questions, should you have them. Don't carry on like you have and poison things with vitriol and bombast.

jayrmli wrote:What my "business" is is my business. I don't know who you are or what you are about, so I will not go into it anymore than that. Your replies on this thread, particularly towards me are malevolent to say the least, and aren't worthy of replying to further. As I stated, I've been in the business for approximately 15 years and have experienced more than just being an engineer. I have assisted in rail freight marketing and worked with those who try to market to potential customers on Long Island. That being said, if I only did it for one hour, it is apparently one hour's worth more real time experience in this field than you have probably been exposed to. I am in no way trying to "mitigate rail based development on the Island," as you claim. I have always championed it, however from my experience and knowledge of what is involved, I know what is and isn't possible, so I won't make wild claims on here that have a snowball's chance in hell of happening. I, my friend, am a realist.

Thanks for being honest... exactly what I thought, and exactly what I wanted and expected to hear. Good discussion...

While some posters have been disputing some matters, on a positive note I am thankful for the information posted.

If you want more freight in LI the place to start would be to make it more attractive to industry. Who wants to manufacture in LI with high power costs, high taxes, high regulation and oh, by the way, perhaps elevated transport costs for inputs?

ccutler wrote:While some posters have been disputing some matters, on a positive note I am thankful for the information posted.

If you want more freight in LI the place to start would be to make it more attractive to industry. Who wants to manufacture in LI with high power costs, high taxes, high regulation and oh, by the way, perhaps elevated transport costs for inputs?

It's not really a matter of manufacturing, since NYC (and the northeast in general) are essentially consumer markets and not manufacturing centers. The issue at hand is warehousing and distribution, and trying to divert the constant convoy of trucks off the VZ and George Washington bridges, among other river crossings. That being said, I am very, very excited about what's going on at Brookhaven. They recently started receiving Pressure Differential covered hoppers carrying flour for Wenner Bread (and possibly other bakeries, my research is not complete on this subject as of this writing). As I said, freight rail on Long Island has a bright future, even though there are many mechanisms at hand to incentivize even more... Brookhaven is a dream come true

NYCS wrote,
"I hope your "business" is somehow involved with the NYCEDC, because that would you be your only saving grace here"

Brookhaven is 60 miles East of Manhattan. What is NYCEDC doing with 65 St? It is going on its third mayor before a car will even be floated out of there. I think they should just go ahead with their plans to make it into a luxury cruise terminal. I'm just wondering what the NYCEDC has done in terms of rail freight on the Brooklyn and Queens side?

freightguy wrote:NYCS wrote,
"I hope your "business" is somehow involved with the NYCEDC, because that would you be your only saving grace here"

Brookhaven is 60 miles East of Manhattan. What is NYCEDC doing with 65 St? It is going on its third mayor before a car will even be floated out of there. I think they should just go ahead with their plans to make it into a luxury cruise terminal. I'm just wondering what the NYCEDC has done in terms of rail freight on the Brooklyn and Queens side?

You are correct, sir. Brookhaven is indeed quite a ways from Manhattan, but it still constitutes actual landfall on the geographic island, thus avoiding rubbering over the Hudson River crossings. I too am worried about 65th Street, and it has been my ardent position since the very first post of this thread that NYC needs to "wake up" and become more aggressive in developing/redeveloping its freight rail infrastructure. One day, perhaps things will become so bad, that a new generation of leaders will take charge and realize the value of freight rail. Hopefully those AAR advertisements and websites such as http://freightrailworks.org will have an impact on NYC's future leaders.

Teutobergerwald wrote:NYCS, businesses that want to be served by rail will get it, either by their own spur or at a teamyard. Some businesses want nothing to do with it. What difference does it make to you? And to attack Jay and question his knowledge is way, way out of line. As I said earlier, having worked for NYA, he knows of what he speaks, so leave it at that. Pose real questions, should you have them. Don't carry on like you have and poison things with vitriol and bombast.

As I mentioned earlier, there are very few suitable sites remaining on geographic Long Island that can accommodate a rail spur, whether existing or new construction. This holds particularly true for Queens and Brooklyn, which are closer to Manhattan. The Phelps Dodge site was one of the few remaining sites in the entirity of New York City wherein a major rail-served facility could have been constructed... and "non-rail" Jetro is gobbling it up acre by acre. This, you may recall, was my original reason for posting this thread. Team yards can be very helpful too, but you must account the added costs of drayage of the commodity via truck to the final destination - a warehouse - before ultimately being rubbered somewhere else. Don't get me wrong, the team yard is a great concept and a major asset to freight rail in *any* city... but you cannot discount the added costs of drayage to a warehouse/distribution center. This will ultimately make rail less attractive as a logistics option, and put more trucks on the road and particulates in the air.

More fuel for the fire: I heard on good authority that CSX wanted to buy back the land Jetro bought in the Bronx so they could do something with it - like get another actual rail customer in there. It's built so high up because after conrail (or whoever it was) sold it, a landfill operated there for awhile. This is probably why the land was capped and the building set 15 feet over the actual surface - not that they would have built a siding even if it was at track level.

Phelps dodge needed a lot of clean up too. Perhaps they bought into both locations because they were cheap. Not sure I'd want to get my food from any facility built on such toxic land though.

For a fan though, the bronx location opens up several great new angles of oak point for shooting photos. The fence isn't tall and the parking area is slightly above it, so any good telephoto lens can get you zoomed in pretty much the whole yard. Since it's far back from the local streets it's fairly isolated from the less palatable natives that lurk around trying to loot the beer cars, etc.

DogBert wrote: Phelps dodge needed a lot of clean up too. Perhaps they bought into both locations because they were cheap. Not sure I'd want to get my food from any facility built on such toxic land though.

Wow DogBert, excellent point regarding "Restaurant Depot" being on a formerly contaminated site. I hadn't even thought of that. Wow... really makes you think.

DogBert wrote: I heard on good authority that CSX wanted to buy back the land Jetro bought in the Bronx so they could do something with it - like get another actual rail customer in there.

Is this still a possibility (i.e. currently in negotiations), or something that happened in the past where CSX failed?

Bronx is a done deal. I don't know the particulars but CSX is never going to get it. I heard they wanted it a few years back, then Jetro got it out from under them. Not sure how serious CSX was about going after it to begin with. With the insane real estate prices around here someone somewhere did some math on how long it'd take to make the money back. I'd imagine Jetro, with their own business ready to run and customers ready to flock to it (pretty busy when I drove through), would make the cash back faster than CSX, unless they had a customer in waiting - which I doubt they did. Otherwise we'd have perhaps seen a different outcome.

CSX still has that spit of land next to it though - a few long tail tracks that could be used for loading/unloading. Beyond that it looks like the switch to NY Organic is broken. They'll never reopen. Not sure how bad that place smelled but it seems crazy to me that the city forced a money making business to leave town. (they made fertilizer, area people complained loudly that it smelt horrible... I'm sure it wasn't pleasant but damn, it's not residential over there)

Anyway, If you can find an address for each location, and go to the propertyshark.com, you can get some history of who bought and sold each property over the years. I'm not sure if it was Conrail or PC that sold that part of Oak Point. Whoever it was, it was definitely a short sighted idea considering it probably quadrupled in value over the last 30 years.