Jetro Cash & Carry - could they be any more anti-rail?

A news article surfaced recently that Restuarant Depot (owned by Jetro Cash & Carry) has purchased the lot next to its existing building on the Phelps Dodge site, and will expand its footprint to over 8 acres. This pretty much "builds out" the entire former Phelps Dodge site, and the saddest part is - no rail service. AT ALL, even though it is prime railroad warehousing/distribution space located along the lower Montauk branch.

Take a look at their new building adjacent to Oak Point Yard, and you will see the same thing. Not only no rail service (even though rail spurs surround the building on two sides), but a massive cinderblock retaining wall was built around the facility almost as a way of keeping *any chance* of rail delivery out.

I understand perhaps their business model does not make rail service economical - that's fine. My true gripe comes when you look at how this company has expanded over the last few years, and every site has been PRIME railroad-served real estate (extremely rare in NY) and Jetro wants nothing to do with rail delivery. Take a look at Jetro's initial construction on the old Phelps Dodge site - no rail service. The expansion? No rail service. Oak Point (Bronx) right next to the CSX railyard with two spurs on either side of the building? They build a retaining wall to keep rail OUT. Why does this company continually build on the dwindling number of sites in New York City that have the potential for rail access, and then the company wants nothing to do with rail delivery? There are plenty of NON-rail served lot and buildings in the New York area, but why does Jetro have to gobble up all of the sites that have the potential for expanding New York City's freight rail service - and then want absolutely nothing to do with rail? Even looking at their facilities in Philly, Baltimore, Chicago and Los Angeles... the same thing. Warehouse built right next to a rail siding, but the company never receives rail service. It's almost as if Jetro HATES the concept of rail service and intentionally builds on rail-served sites just to "stick it" to the railroad industry. That's fine in places like Chicago, but it is an absolute travesty in a location such as New York where rail-served industrial property is *extremely rare* to begin with.

What is wrong with Jetro/Restaurant Depot? Can anyone shed some more light into the inner culture of this company?

Article of Maspeth expansion: http://www.costar.com/News/Article/Jetr ... 75M/138428

Google Maps image of existing Restaurant Depot. Notice the mainline just to the north of the building. The site to the east will now double the size of the facility: http://maps.google.com/?ll=40.726868,-7 ... 6&t=h&z=18

Google Maps image of Oak Point facility. Why a friggin' cinderblock wall? What a slap in the face to CSX: http://maps.google.com/?ll=40.809339,-7 ... 6&t=h&z=18

My request to Jetro/Restaurant Depot is simple: If you're not going to use rail, please stop gobbling up the extremely few sites in New York City that can actually receive rail service!

After the story's of Oak Point I have heard, I imagine that wall is because of the locals, not the railroad..

Well, at least CURES is happy... even though they are oblivious to the fact that more rail = less trucks = less air pollution. Thankfully, however, they are fighting a losing battle as New York does, in fact, seem to be getting more serious about freight rail:

Last I checked, this was still America. If a business wants to purchase property they should be able to do anything legal on that property - including the ability to NOT take rail service if that's what they choose to do.

While it's near the railroad line, anywhere in that area is hardly "prime" real estate for prospective rail freight. Most companies today that would look to buy a facility to do any serious rail freight operations would not consider an area that can not accept Plate F or higher cars, has a weight limit still at 263,000lbs. This is still why the majority of "prime" freight business is on the other side of the Hudson and is trucked in. Why do you think Fresh Direct is moving from Long Island City (right next to this same branch) to the Bronx? So they can get all of the benefits of rail freight...

NYCS, excellent point & Jayrmli I think the reason stuff is trucked in from Jersey isn't the plate "F" issue but the fact that freight has to go upstate NY then back down just to get to NYC unless you use the car floats. It's all bout cheapness, a facility can be upgraded to handle oversize cars with not alot of money as far as rails are concerned. And the CURES people should should find CURE to stop them from being stupid hippies, they'll be happy when rail is gone, OK fine then you can find all those railroad people new jobs at the same or better pay, fire them from their jobs because someone else don't like it and see them cry.

Sorry just my .02

Going up to Albany and return is a part of the issue, but really not a major one. Most rail freight shipments are not that time sensitive and the additional time is budgeted for when a company orders it. The biggest hurdle for a railroad marketing department are the issues I mentioned - the inability to ship goods in an excess height car and the inability to ship cars over 263,000 lbs.

As I mentioned, Fresh Direct is moving to the Bronx to get rail service - not Jersey. If it were just an issue of going to Selkirk and back, they would not be moving to the Bronx.

What clearance issues exist between Oak Point and Fresh Pond? From there, what clearance issues exist to Maspeth/Blissville/LIC etc?

Isn't the track on those routes 286K compatible already?

West of Fresh Pond the Lower Montauk is only cleared for Plate C cars, meaning any of those boxcars with the white strip at the top can't fit under the M line subway bridge or probably the overbuild west of Fresh Pond. All if the LIRR has a weight limit on cars of 263,000 lbs.

Checking an old('76)clearance book of Conrail,they allowed plate C cars into NY metro area,part of the Hudon line had bridges raised to allow
plate F boxcars and triracks to get to the GM plant in tarrytown,GM bailed out years later,plant razed.
Not sure what CSX,D+H(CP)and P+W would allow now.

jayrmli wrote:Last I checked, this was still America. If a business wants to purchase property they should be able to do anything legal on that property - including the ability to NOT take rail service if that's what they choose to do.

While it's near the railroad line, anywhere in that area is hardly "prime" real estate for prospective rail freight. Most companies today that would look to buy a facility to do any serious rail freight operations would not consider an area that can not accept Plate F or higher cars, has a weight limit still at 263,000lbs. This is still why the majority of "prime" freight business is on the other side of the Hudson and is trucked in. Why do you think Fresh Direct is moving from Long Island City (right next to this same branch) to the Bronx? So they can get all of the benefits of rail freight...

Not to start an argument, but I fundamentally disagree with you on every single point you make.

1. Please don't pull that jingoistic "This is America" or "Land of Freedom" BS on me. It only makes you look more desperate in trying to articulate your points. Even though we are a free country, all new developments must go through an approval process and a permitting process, not to mention adhere to local zoning laws. Many cities tightly control what can be built where, using a toolbox full of mechanisms such as economic development incentives, incubator zones, restrictive zoning, etc. This may be a free country, but the government can and does control what is built and where. Would you want a 100-story skyscraper on the lot next to your house? Didn't think so...

2. Freight rail is unquestionably, undoubtedly, undeniably one of the most efficient forms of freight transportation that exists. A single boxcar can carry the payload of 3 to 4 semi trailers, depending on the size of the railcar. New York City needs to get serious about freight rail. Less than 1% of freight is brought onto geographic Long Island by rail, and the VZ and George Washington Bridges can NOT sustain the projected increase in truck traffic; they can't even sustain the current load without causing major traffic delays. It is up to New York City to recognize this dilemma and establish "incubator zones" along rail lines such as the Lower Montauk Branch and Bushwick Branch. Incubator zones have been used by the city before to "gentrify" decaying neighborhoods by attracting industries related to high-tech, fashion, and the arts. One of New York City's biggest downfalls is that most warehousing and distribution takes place in New Jersey, and not on geographic Long Island itself. This is why industrial "freight rail" incubator zones need to be established both within the city and on geographic Long Island; the city offering financial incentives and workforce incentives, among other tools, to attract companies and reward them for receiving shipments by rail. If a company chooses not to receive by rail, that's fine too... but they miss out on all those juicy incentives.

3. Fresh Direct is not moving to the Bronx for rail service. It was their intent all along to stay in New York, all the while threatening to leave to NJ in order to gain financial incentives from NYC to stay. It was an empty threat, but the city ponied up and called it a victory. This tactic is used by companies all over the world. When Boeing announced they were moving their headquarters from Seattle, they publicly announced that Denver, Dallas and Chicago were their three finalists to become the new headquarters city. As I was working with the Denver Economic Development Office at the time, we discussed that Boeing all along was using Denver and Dallas as pawns in order to milk the best deal out of Chicago. Dallas practically prostituted itself, while Denver didn't even compete. It was Boeing's decision all along to move to Chicago, but by placing Denver and Dallas onto the chess board, Boeing was able to gain financial incentives, job creation incentives, and tax incentives from Chicago... and that was its plan all along. Who came out the real winner? The same story holds true for Fresh Direct; I can't even count the number of times a New York company has threatened to leave for NJ in order to get a better deal from NYC to stay.

4. Your assumption that high-cube boxcars are not allowed on geographic Long Island is fatally flawed. I can't count how many times I've seen FBOX (TTX) Plate F boxcars in Fresh Pond, or out on the island. These are 286K cars, and clearance issues are obviously not an issue since these cars still have their roofs intact

5. Regarding Harlem River Railyard Ventures (or whatever they call themselves), they have been an absolute embarrassment to their mission of transforming the South Bronx into a rail mecca. Where is the intermodal yard? Where are the industries besides Waste Management and the New York Post? It's sad, and even worse, they hold a 99 year lease on the land. Unless NYC steps in and decrees the area as an industrial "freight rail" incubator zone, nothing will be done.

In my opinion, the Jetro Cash & Carry/Restaurant Depot development sites should never have been allowed through the permitting process without solid guarantees they would receive shipments by rail. The city *does* have control over what goes where through various mechanisms, but unfortunately NYC doesn't realize how truck-dependent it is, doesn't realize the benefits of rail shipments such as reduced pollution and reduced traffic congestion, and instead relies on NJ for its warehousing and distribution functions ---- all the while, you sit in a traffic jam breathing in the fumes of the idling truck in front of you.

The Hudson line/Oak Point Connector still has some clearance issues. It's not just vertical clearances. The Third rail limits equipment, and the Oak Point connector still has a "low" bridge issue from one or two of the vehicle bridges across the Harlem River. It is better, but not perfect. Some plate E and F cars are getting through.

I'd like to see the autoracks that are supposed to come over by carfloat to the new car facility in Brooklyn.

It's also been ten years or so, time for someone to try bringing TOFC over again. :D

Nowadays "JIT" rules the logistics world,get what you need to get by,eveything else shows up in a timely fashion(in 53 ft trailers/containers)
That seems to be today's business model,Rail freight with the exception of intermodel,is more bulk based and not as timely

NYC has an overall lenght law for trucks-68ft,the avg lenght of ISTEA legal OTR trucks is around 75ft with a 53 ft trailer.
By Federal law, the city must allow up to 3 miles off the interstate network for access to deliver.
Only Cabovers and short wb day cabs can haul 53 ft trailers farther then the 3 mile limit.
As long as the OTR driver doesn't sc***up can getaway with it(no accidents or blocked intersections,etc)

jayrmli wrote:West of Fresh Pond the Lower Montauk is only cleared for Plate C cars, meaning any of those boxcars with the white strip at the top can't fit under the M line subway bridge or probably the overbuild west of Fresh Pond. All if the LIRR has a weight limit on cars of 263,000 lbs.

Once again, not true. Take a look at the first boxcar in this train. Clearly a high-cube, shot in Deer Park:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SNZQ3JkDjTA

Actually that train is EAST of Fresh Pond. The restriction is WEST of Fresh Pond due to the MTA Bridge for the M train. NY&A did hit it a few years ago with a high car and caught hell from the MTA. Trains coming down from the interchange have to make sure they are using the correct leg of the wye into Fresh Pond.

Over the past three decades, public agencies have focused on issues related to vertical
clearances and the bearing-weight of rails so that the publicly-owned rail infrastructure
east of the Hudson River could accommodate the types of rail equipment commonly
used elsewhere in the US. However, while these efforts are still underway, the bar is
continually being raised. As a result, trailers-on-flatcars (TOFC) and high-cube boxcars
(Plate F/17’6”) can now reach many parts of Long Island.

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http://ntl.bts.gov/lib/42000/42500/4252 ... Final1.pdf