Irving/PAR/CSX Traffic

I figured I would start a new thread after all the talk of potential new business and service from NBSR/EMR/MNR on multiple threads.

It seems that Irving and CSX are becoming pretty chummy lately and PAR is the middle man. Not sure how much traffic they can switch from CN until their deal (2014 or later?) has expired but its seems they are willing to test the waters with PAR. Unfortunately this potential new traffic is happening on the worst stretches of main PAR has. Could they be looking to the State for monies? It may behoove Irving to fund some band-aid improvements to get the speeds reliable at least.

I'm curious what NS feels about this? Is it me or does it seem NS is content with the west end intermodal/automotive/grain money makers and may have conceded the maritime traffic to CSX (not as lucrative for NS)? They have spent a lot on the West End and at Mechanicville so the equivalent of a train of general freight a day that must be switched/humped may not be worth their effort.

Sorry to answer my own question here but the CN/NBSR freight routing/Island Yard switching deal began in 2002 and last 20 years.

There's been considerable discussion recently between the Irvings and Pan Am about the "no man's land" between Keag and Waterville. Pan Am realizes that it's going to take significant $$ to get that section of the line up to class 2/3, plus it only really sees one through train each way per day, so not exactly a high density corridor. I believe Pan Am wanted the Irvings to take control of the line via a lease arrangement where they would be responsible for maintenance/upgrading and would be a haulage carrier for Pan Am. There would have to be a divisional shift where NBSR would likely get $200-$300 more per car on through traffic via Waterville than vs Keag, and they would also need to work up a switching fee for on-line traffic coming out of Bucksport, Old Town, etc. Last I knew this had kind of been put on the back burner (Irving probably doesn't want to spend all that money either!), but if Pan Am continues to grow the traffic out of the Maritimes and the County, something will sooner or later need to get done. Next time I speak to the Pan Am guys I will try to get an update.

Very interesting. It sounds like a long shot but if it was to happen, it would make sense for both parties operationally while maybe not financially. MNR could generate the raw material for Old Town and could have the potential to deliver them directly if they were to switch to all railcar unloading. Maybe even grow inbound/outbound traffic? And there is always the potential for increased service to/from Bucksport. PAR would be freed from running north of NMJ or Waterville, and still get the traffic? A win-win for them. While Irving could be doing all the work for not a lot of gain. The devil is in the details as usual. Thanks for the info.

I don't know how long ago an Irving deal for haulage rights to Waterville was being discussed but given PAR's current incremental mentality towards new business I am of the opinion that they would undertake an improvement program for their tracks in the area. Although I don't think this would mean Class III speeds I do think they would likely be more than willing to do a substantial amount of tie replacement and other repairs on an "as needed basis". Obviously that part of their lines really probably needs a complete rebuild but I think PAR feels the traffic doesn't justify it.

At what point does safety justify it? ...Before or after the derailment when a section of rail comes up through a loaded
hazmat car and wipes out half of a town!...I KNOW, i KNOW!...facts and figures don't justify but I had to get that in...I know from experience that the repairs
come after the wreck...Just explain to all the state and local so called officials that tend to look the other way when it comes to P/A...They are happy with 10 and 25 but when I was running, it was one rail at a time and hope you stay on.
Ten MPH is justifyable because when a car or engine goes off, it doesn't do as much damage then at 25 mph or more.

Honestly, with the current traffic levels north of Old Town being 1 train each way/day the OT-Keag portion of the line might as well be a branch. The track quality reflects PAR's 30 year mentality of spend nothing unless you have too, and will need significant work should Irving decide to really move a lot of traffic to Barbers.

I had a chance this weekend to get a good look at PAR's track and compare it with MMA's and Irving's. Having never been to Keag before, it was obvious which railroad ran which tracks. NBSR has good rail, on good ties all sitting on good ballast, PAR has what used to be track. Likewise, at Northern Maine Jct, the "potholes" on Pan Am's main are awful while on MMA's even the tracks into the LMS shed are level, smooth, ballasted and all around maintained. PAR has some significant work to do. And because of all the work needed I would tend to think that Irving would lean away from taking all that on. Either way though, I think its fair to say the Irving/Pan Am partnership is on the up swing and this traffic won't be going away.

Tim,

I wasn't under the impression things were that bad and I'm one of the first responders who would have to deal with it if it did happen.

Perhaps here's the real question: Is it possible to make incremental repairs, ties here, new stick rail there, minor amount of ballast etc., that would make the line safe enough for substantial additional traffic?

This is why the speed restrictions are the way they are. Derailing at 10 MPH isn't likely to cause a major catastrophe, even with HAZMAT involved. Sure, if you derail while you're going over a high bridge, the danger is considerably higher... but that's why they have those inner guard rails between the running rails. If you're crawling across the bridge at 10 (or 5), it's pretty unlikely that things are going to fall off / flip over / explode.

Correct me if I'm wrong, but most of the major train wrecks involving HAZMAT in recent memory have been on supposedly well-maintained 40+ MPH Class I railroads.

Pan Am's focus right now is clearly Portland to Waterville and that's where the CWR and new ties are going in. There's still hope that something can be worked out with the Irvings East of Waterville, but the longer this goes on and the worse the track gets, the more likely Pan Am will eventually have to spend some dough up that way. The Irvings aren't stupid, so they're going to do a lot of homework before they take over such a run down piece of railroad.

I can see haulage trains MAYBE, but they will never give the online switching of those mills to NBSR...

MEC407 wrote:This is why the speed restrictions are the way they are. Derailing at 10 MPH isn't likely to cause a major catastrophe, even with HAZMAT involved. Sure, if you derail while you're going over a high bridge, the danger is considerably higher... but that's why they have those inner guard rails between the running rails. If you're crawling across the bridge at 10 (or 5), it's pretty unlikely that things are going to fall off / flip over / explode.

Correct me if I'm wrong, but most of the major train wrecks involving HAZMAT in recent memory have been on supposedly well-maintained 40+ MPH Class I railroads.

Graniteville, SC, which for most intents and purposes in HAZMAT world is a worst case scenario took place at a hand switch to an industrial branch/spur off a freight main line. I'm unfamiliar with the exact level and quality of NS's line at the time in that area. Point being the incident took place off of a freight main line and was partly caused by the presence of an industrial spur that apparently wasn't tied into a signal system.

newpylong wrote:I can see haulage trains MAYBE, but they will never give the online switching of those mills to NBSR...

Why wouldn't they? Those points like Bucksport and Old Town would still be closed Pan Am stations, so they would still completely control the traffic and would probably still own the line. It's really just simple math - is it worth maintaining @ 150 miles of light density mainline, employing crews and maintaining power, when you can get someone else to do all that work for maybe $400 per car and have that traffic all delivered to you in one big chunk at Waterville? The big thing is control and as long as Pan Am continues to be the only road with access to those points, they don't stand much to lose. The big roads like CSXT and Conrail before them did this all the time, with the CSO being a perfect example. They do all the $hit local switching and deal with all the associated headaches and CSXT gets a nice 75 car train dropped off to it every night at West Springfield. Am guessing NBSR pays crews a lot less than Pan Am, so this is really no more than a way of cutting costs but still maintaining pricing authority. If NBSR demands $1000 per car then it's obviously not going to work, but they are handling cars from Saint John to Keag for a lot less than that and Pan Am would certainly be in a much better negotiating position when it comes to leasing its own lines.

I think the question is far more fundamental than just $400/car in revenues.

Does PAR want to operate in Northern Maine? Do they make enough money doing it to be worthwhile? Is there potential for future business growth in that area?

Given the potential breakthroughs with NBSR and an improving economy, and changes in manufacturing patterns ("inshoring") I think their business outlook in this area is likely to be positive.

Most importantly, they've made a commitment to incremental business and in an incremental business model you don't outsource anything.

For any number of reasons. For one, that's not something they typically do... besides their neighboring railroads changing owners a few times, nothing has really changed much in Maine in the past 20 years. If they were going to do anything like that it would have happened already. The new "relationship" with the NBSR doesn't change a thing with regards with online traffic. NBSR wants another outlet and if PAR can offer consistant service they have it.

The only reason they have their little "arrangement" on the Woodland branch is because it's a pain in the arse to service power and fix track nowhere near the rest of your system.

Every mill, east or west of Waterville, is their bread and butter and they will not give up switching rights.