Irving/PAR/CSX Traffic

I respect your opinion and can see where you are coming from, but I have been told by some people at Pan Am pretty far up the food chain that these discussions are ongoing. As I said previously, they will still own the tracks, still control pricing and still handle all the rail business. They will just be subbing out all the headaches associated with running these light density lines. Also, didn't they lease out the switching of the Sappi mill at Shawmut at one point to some FL shortline? Not sure if that arrangement is still in place, but that pretty much shoots a hole in your theory that Pan Am would never give up switching rights at one of their mills, let alone the biggest one of all at Shawmut!

How often do the mills at Old Town and Bucksport get serviced from PAR? Would the switching rights be enough incentive for Irving to maintain the neglected track from Keag to NMJ or Waterville as well as the increased car rates? Seems like a win-win for PAR but a financial and operational dilemma for Irving.

The 2002 haulage agreement ( for 20 years ) NBSR signed with CN, as I first read it, was described as " some of their Western long haul traffic ".......so I would surmise Western means Western Canada. This agreement was initialized with the uncertainty at the time, of operation involving the former BAR lines operator, Iron Roads RR, west of Brownvile J'c't and to Montreal .......which is now the Montreal, Maine and Atlantic RR.

Presently, a great amount of crude oil is being brought to Irving's Refinery in St. John, N.B. by CN, which also carries refined products West. I would rather think NBSR's agreement with CN should not effect NBSR traffic destined for CSX in New England.

Last week, NBSR initialized a new schedule into / out of St. John, whereby PAR units are operating in New Brunswick. I noticed on a PAR railfan site, the NBSR / PAR trains are now referred as POSJ / SJPO ( Portland - St. John ), instead of WASJ / SJWA.

A couple of years ago when I last saw the tracks west of the Keag, my first impression was...........appeared to have good ties, ballast and rail, but man...........could certainly use a good dose of tamping / alignment equipment.

roberttosh wrote:I respect your opinion and can see where you are coming from, but I have been told by some people at Pan Am pretty far up the food chain that these discussions are ongoing. As I said previously, they will still own the tracks, still control pricing and still handle all the rail business. They will just be subbing out all the headaches associated with running these light density lines. Also, didn't they lease out the switching of the Sappi mill at Shawmut at one point to some FL shortline? Not sure if that arrangement is still in place, but that pretty much shoots a hole in your theory that Pan Am would never give up switching rights at one of their mills, let alone the biggest one of all at Shawmut!

I can see them getting some of the freight main out of keag, the rest I'll believe when it happens. Billerica and people who work there ( including my contacts ) discuss a lot of things... what comes to fruition is only a fraction.

newpylong wrote:

roberttosh wrote:I respect your opinion and can see where you are coming from, but I have been told by some people at Pan Am pretty far up the food chain that these discussions are ongoing. As I said previously, they will still own the tracks, still control pricing and still handle all the rail business. They will just be subbing out all the headaches associated with running these light density lines. Also, didn't they lease out the switching of the Sappi mill at Shawmut at one point to some FL shortline? Not sure if that arrangement is still in place, but that pretty much shoots a hole in your theory that Pan Am would never give up switching rights at one of their mills, let alone the biggest one of all at Shawmut!

I can see them getting some of the freight main out of keag, the rest I'll believe when it happens. Billerica and people who work there ( including my contacts ) discuss a lot of things... what comes to fruition is only a fraction.

No idea how it's going to pan out - if at all, but I am 100% certain that there have been in depth discussions at the highest levels about NBSR running everything East of Waterville. Maybe it's a pipe dream or some type of negotiating ploy and again, I don't have all the details, but it's definitely being discussed.

Hello go keefe.....Sorry I haven't responded to you're question sooner...As far as a first responder goes, that would be the conductor who has to walk back in very unsafe conditions to determine why the train went into emergency and face a whole lot of uncertanty as to what he is going to find.Now as far as track goes,
upkeep, that is something that every railroad regardless of their size should have a good maintenance program just like roads and bridges and not a repair as you wreck type of thing. Especially for main line...Yes, the big roads have wrecks at speeds of
40 or higher and they are usually bad but they are putting huge amounts of money into their infrastructure because speed, or like they say, "time is money", is important for good service to customers...As far as hazmat situations. I can give a few
examples but I can't remember dates where tanks were involved; i.e. two loaded propane cars tipped over in Rollinsford,NH. on the sidding...Neither Fire Departments were notified, An empty Haz. tank was punctured in Lawerence, two Hazmat cars derailed in Lawerence,one split open and was dragged, one empty tank tore up market St. Ports. coming back from Sprague
Energy, just a few examples but all could have had serious results...Maybe I'm getting off topic but I just wanted to respond.
I haven't worked for two years and I understand that work is being done on the road bed but I can tell you that it was pretty bad even at ten mph.

If Irving takes over control from Waterville east, what are the chances of them gaining customers that PAR has lost over the years such as the Lincoln Mill (Lp&T)?

I guess I'm confused about one thing, and that is: "why would PAR give up the section from Waterville to NMJ?" Doesn't PAR still have value left in that stretch?

Pan Am still serves LP&P and in fact within the past few weeks they handled their first outbound boxcar shipment of paper for them in years. While the service up that way isn't great, LP&P is more of a smaller, specialty mill like Sappi at Westbrook and their business doesn't really lend itself to rail like the mills at Rileys, Bucksport, Shawmut, etc.

Mcoov wrote:I guess I'm confused about one thing, and that is: "why would PAR give up the section from Waterville to NMJ?" Doesn't PAR still have value left in that stretch?

PAR would still own the tracks and control the pricing. Their hope is that the Irvings would (A) rebuild the line for them and (B) handle the cars for them more economically than they can. It's a no-brainer if the numbers work, but there's no guarantee they will.

I would think Keag to NMJ would be a little more palatable for Irving than Keag to Waterville. Even though PAR would still own the track I'm sure MMA would like to keep PAR at NMJ instead of Irving as well. But the whole thing may not work if Irving were to upgrade their end and PAR's section continued to be riddled with slow orders.

With all due respect to the mill at Old town, their only major customer between Waterville and Keag is Verso at Bucksport, so there's a lot of running for not a lot of business. I guess PAR is considering themselves a "real" class one now and they really want to concentrate on their core lines. They probably don't have the cash to fix the line East of Waterville and see this as a good option. They probably also feel that the more skin the Irvings have in the game, the more likely they will be wanting to route traffic that way. In other words, if Irving runs the line from Saint John all the way to Waterville, they'll probably want to push as much business over that line as possible without compromising their economics.

"Pan Am still serves LP&P and in fact within the past few weeks they handled their first outbound boxcar shipment of paper for them in years."

Thats great news! Any idea of its destination? Was it a Pan Am Box or a High Cube?

roberttosh wrote:Pan Am still serves LP&P and in fact within the past few weeks they handled their first outbound boxcar shipment of paper for them in years.

If it was only one that almost sounds like a test load.

It was a test load and believe it went to a warehouse in the Boston area.