If you could restore a defunct Amtrak route

There are probably at least 20 corridor type routes that could be operated with proper state support and at a much less cost than more LD routes and providing much better service to the areas in question as well. In a few cases the LD trains serve some of these areas with one or possibly two daily trains but in most cases the LD trains do not provide a really useful in state service because of the hours that some corridor points are served.
Many state governments will not touch rail passenger service with a "ten foot pole". They are the losers, look what has happened in California, New York, Illinois, Oregon, Washington and the other states that do support passenger trains, they have growing areas and overall the residents and business are better served than with more and more highways and expensive airport expansion. Much of the time the leaders of state governments are beholden to the highway lobby that does not want one dollar spent on rail expansion of any kind. Certainly that is the case here in Florida which would be an ideal state for much instate passenger service. The Florida East Coast will prove the anti rail wrong in a few years, you watch.
What will happen in the future? Maybe something but it will be expensive and the longer the states wait do do the right thing the more it will cost them.
Noel Weaver

even where states do support rail there a reason issues with getting multiple states agree on schedules, payments, and stopping patterns. that's why the feds should play a role in interstate rail travel. the idea that the feds should only fund services over 750 miles rather than under 500 miles is hugely destructive to passenger rail (and maybe that was the goal). a minimum operating ratio would make a lot more sense

But Amtrak does pay for most of the operating costs for regional inter-city train services. They only expect the States to subsidize their loses, between 15% to 50% of the operations and maintenance costs of these trains. The fares Amtrak charges pays for most of the costs of these trains, it's the long distance trains where the fares pay for far less than 50% of these costs.

One that comes to mind that I don't think has been mentioned is the *Spirit of California*, the state sponsored sleeper train that ran Los Angeles-Oakland-Sacramento in the early 1980s

the state pays for the losses of the train while the passenger pays for the portion that aren't losses. amtrak can't run a palmetto if it's under 750 miles but is free to lose their shirt on the zephyr. that is an absurd transportation policy

gokeefe wrote:This is the one that will actually happen:

Run a Silver Service train out of Boston South Station.

Much easier and could be quickly done now that the Silver Star has lost it's diner. Once the new Viewliner IIs are available a 125 mph Silver Star running up to Boston would be a good fit on the corridor. The availability of through baggage up to Boston on a Florida train would be a real asset.

bdawe wrote:One [possibility] is the *Spirit of California*, the state sponsored sleeper train that ran Los Angeles-[Santa Barbara]-[San Luis Obispo]-[San Jose]-Oakland-Sacramento in the early 1980s

This could be a very helpful route. Worth doing for its own sake, as a second frequency to the Coast Starlight.

The Spirit would also make more connections with the Seattle-Portland-Sacramento stretch of the Starlight, and with the Zephyr, and the San Joaquins in the Bay Area/Sacramento. Then in L.A. it would connect with the Southwest Chief, the Sunset Ltd., and Surfliner L.A.-San Diego, as well as California's future L.A.-Palms Springs-Indio line. [And plenty transit in L.A. and the Bay area.]

This regional Spirit of California would overlay two existing and thriving corridor trains, the Capitols San Jose-Oakland-Sacramento and the Surfliners L.A.-Santa Barbara. It could help build a third strong corridor L.A.-Santa Barbara-San Luis Obispo. At present, 5 Surfliners a day extend L.A.-Santa Barbara, with 2 of those continuing to San Luis Obispo, plus the Starlight. Of course, 3 trains a day Santa Barbara-San Luis Obispo is a very thin schedule.

Adding a Spirit of California run would increase service and capacity nicely. Of course, California is working on plans to add more Surfliner frequencies, soonish and at least to Santa Barbara, then perhaps later to San Luis Obispo. The route will get some upgrades, taking minutes out of the schedule, which in turn, would benefit the LD Coast Starlight.

But here we go again. Sacramento-L.A. is 500 miles, falling way short of the current threshold for Amtrak funding, no matter how much it would strengthen the national system and add ridership.

Woody, "the rest of the story" is that the Spirit got whacked in favor of an additional San Joaquin frequency. All told, much better use of scarce resources.

The Spirit had a consist of some three A-I's, Snack Bar, and one 10-6 Sleeper. I don't know if Superliner equipment could have been a plus.

But all told, when I rode The Lark during 1963, and there were Pullmans stretching out of sight, Spirit was simply showing that the 400 mile overnight Sleeper was dead. It's no surprise that the Night Owl has become 66-67. In Europe, away from the UK, which hasn't got any HSR, the Sleeper is dying with the last remaining hurrah being Couchettes - did that once in this life during 1990 when I was 48. Now closing in on 75, "uh, not about to".

Suburban Station wrote:the state pays for the losses of the train while the passenger pays for the portion that aren't losses. amtrak can't run a palmetto if it's under 750 miles but is free to lose their shirt on the zephyr. that is an absurd transportation policy

Woody wrote:

bdawe wrote:One [possibility] is the *Spirit of California*, the state sponsored sleeper train that ran Los Angeles-[Santa Barbara]-[San Luis Obispo]-[San Jose]-Oakland-Sacramento in the early 1980s

This could be a very helpful route. Worth doing for its own sake, as a second frequency to the Coast Starlight.

The Spirit would also make more connections with the Seattle-Portland-Sacramento stretch of the Starlight, and with the Zephyr, and the San Joaquins in the Bay Area/Sacramento. Then in L.A. it would connect with the Southwest Chief, the Sunset Ltd., and Surfliner L.A.-San Diego, as well as California's future L.A.-Palms Springs-Indio line. [And plenty transit in L.A. and the Bay area.]

This regional Spirit of California would overlay two existing and thriving corridor trains, the Capitols San Jose-Oakland-Sacramento and the Surfliners L.A.-Santa Barbara. It could help build a third strong corridor L.A.-Santa Barbara-San Luis Obispo. At present, 5 Surfliners a day extend L.A.-Santa Barbara, with 2 of those continuing to San Luis Obispo, plus the Starlight. Of course, 3 trains a day Santa Barbara-San Luis Obispo is a very thin schedule.

Adding a Spirit of California run would increase service and capacity nicely. Of course, California is working on plans to add more Surfliner frequencies, soonish and at least to Santa Barbara, then perhaps later to San Luis Obispo. The route will get some upgrades, taking minutes out of the schedule, which in turn, would benefit the LD Coast Starlight.

But here we go again. Sacramento-L.A. is 500 miles, falling way short of the current threshold for Amtrak funding, no matter how much it would strengthen the national system and add ridership.

Reno to San Diego then?

If Congress had put a 750 mile rule in front of me, the next day I'd send them proposals for restarting the Floridian, the National Limited, the Desert Wind, etc. and show them how ridiculous the policy was. Then when they come back with the inevitable "we can't afford that", say well why not something cheaper like, say, a Dallas to Houston route?

Maybe if California High Speed Rail and other high speed rails come about maybe Amtrak will realize they no longer have a monopoly on intercity travel and will actually have to try to improve travel. What incentive do they have now? Of course, that assumes Congress actually cares if Amtrak succeeds.

Once again any silver to BOS would mean the cancellation of a regional because that would exceed the 9 train/ day limit.

Truncate one of the Virginia-BOS trains in NYP. I get you want shorter trains that are less susceptible to delays. But once you go south of DC that's starting to get on the long end already. I get Virginia wants to visit WAS and NYP but is there that much traffic for Virginia to/from New England? Might as well head to Florida and get some more attractive cities. And it's not like a Florida train wouldn't serve Virginia (or at least Richmond).

Gilbert B Norman wrote:Woody, "the rest of the story" is that the Spirit got whacked in favor of an additional San Joaquin frequency. All told, much better use of scarce resources.

I completely agree.

The Spirit had a consist of some three A-I's, Snack Bar, and one 10-6 Sleeper. ...

But all told, Spirit was simply showing that the 400 mile overnight Sleeper was dead.

Interesting history and background, thanks.

Currently the Palmetto takes 15 hours, NYC-Savannah, 6:05 a.m. to 9:04 p.m. The Carolinian takes 13 hours NYC-Charlotte, 7:05 a.m. to 8:12 p.m. The current Starlight takes almost 15 hours Sacramento-L.A., 6:30 a.m. to 9 p.m., but barely 12 hours Oakland/Emeryville-L.A., and a mere 11 hours San Jose-L.A. (if getting off at Santa Barbara deduct 3 hours).

Looking at the comparable Palmetto and Carolinian, the revived Spirit won't be needing any sleepers or diners. Folks need to be fed, but cafe cars (better than Snack Bars, we'll hope, LOL) will have to do it.

I'm counting on the considerable population growth since the Spirit was whacked, the better feeders (especially the Surfliners, MetroLink and Metro rail), and Amtrak's improving brand (more frequent and better service in California, Wi-Fi, electronic ticketing, etc) to attract enuff riders to make this thing work.

The best part is, California will pay for it. It could come about faster, or be better, if the feds invested in it, but it will happen in due course. And Amtrak's national system will benefit from it.

east point wrote:Once again, any Silver to BOS would mean the cancellation of a regional because that would exceed the 9 train/day limit.

Could they hook up, the way the Palmetto is now hooked up with a Regional NYC-D.C.? Maybe such a train would be too long for the New England platforms? Just asking.

Philly Amtrak Fan wrote:Maybe if CA High Speed Rail and others come about, maybe Amtrak will realize they no longer have a monopoly on intercity travel and will actually have to try to improve. What incentive do they have now? Of course, that assumes Congress actually cares if Amtrak succeeds.

First of all, in Congress, the haters have come to a peak of their power, very close to a majority. They are deterred from killing Amtrak outright by a pro-rail President and a significant bloc of lovers of passenger rail (Sens Dick Durbin of Illinois and Chuck Schumer of NY, Cong Corrine Brown of FL, among others). Anyway, taxes and appropriations must start in the House, as per the Constitution. In recent years the haters there prevented any meaningful increases in funding, and set the policy of ageing equipment, inadequate service, and slow decline.

This notion that the people at Amtrak aren't proud of it, aren't good at their jobs, aren't doing the best they can with what they've got, and have no vision of how to improve it if only they had the funding ... the notion that they don't care with all their hearts is absolutely ridiculous.

Philly Amtrak Fan wrote:

east point wrote:Once again any silver to BOS would mean the cancellation of a regional because that would exceed the 9 train/ day limit.

Truncate one of the Virginia-BOS trains in NYP. I get you want shorter trains that are less susceptible to delays. But once you go south of DC that's starting to get on the long end already. I get Virginia wants to visit WAS and NYP but is there that much traffic for Virginia to/from New England? Might as well head to Florida and get some more attractive cities. And it's not like a Florida train wouldn't serve Virginia (or at least Richmond).

Yes there is a lot of traffic from Virginia to NYP and points beyond. This is one of the most if not the most successful service Amtrak has created in the history of the Northeast Regional program (and Northeast Direct and Acela Regional).

The easy decision would be to give the NYP-BOS slot from a Northeast Regional to one of the long distance trains and take that Northeast Regional and truncate at NHV or SPG. Or if Amtrak felt particularly daring they could contract with Massachusetts for a run-through "Inland Regional" NYP-SPG-BOS. CSX is certainly busy right now but they would probably welcome the additional revenue given their losses from coal elsewhere.

Perhaps that really is the "big answer", time for Amtrak to restore service on the Inland corridor in order to better serve the Northeast Corridor travel market. The other limitation worth remembering is that for the moment Amtrak cannot service trains beyond 9 cars long at Southhampton shops in Boston. Consequently the long distance options are very limited out of BOS.