If you could restore a defunct Amtrak route

For the "quick" response of a new national LD system, consider this map at CaliforniaRailMap.com. It has most of the ideas I had said previously.

https://5780613a-a-62cb3a1a-s-sites.goo ... edirects=0" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Here's another: http://www.america2050.org/pdf/2050_Map ... etwork.pdf" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

My point about the California Zephyr is not to say that it should go but merely to observe that it is by far the weakest of the three major Western transcontinental trains.

That observation in my mind indicates a need for further consideration of corridor service of some kind with a hub focusing on Denver. The problem is that the basic population geography in that part of the country is not conducive at all to rail passenger service and the environmental and topographical conditions make rail transportation challenging and aviation far less so.

That being the case what should be the answer?

At least from my point of view there is simply nothing obvious at all that comes to mind for Denver.

Looking at the map I notice that Pueblo is a good bit closer to Denver than I thought. Perhaps the one option here might be setout cars off the California Zephyr in addition to those proposed for the Southwest Chief. That could allow Amtrak to add service to Colorado Springs as well. It's worth noting that the entire ABQ-DEN route is currently covered by a very robust Thruway service that covers both trains.

Although I do not see this as the beginning of a new long distance or corridor service I think its worth considering given the obvious support for rail service in Pueblo and the good population geography in that corridor to Denver.

gokeefe wrote:Looking at the map I notice that Pueblo is a good bit closer to Denver than I thought. Perhaps the one option here might be setout cars off the California Zephyr in addition to those proposed for the Southwest Chief. That could allow Amtrak to add service to Colorado Springs as well. It's worth noting that the entire ABQ-DEN route is currently covered by a very robust Thruway service that covers both trains.

I've long advocated a CHI-KCY-Pueblo-Colorado Springs-DEN section of the Southwest Chief, in addition to the Thruway buses. Set-out cars for the CZ would make a lot of sense too, if they don't already happen.

Sisko24 wrote:
That's interesting, sealed, huh? That sounds creepy to me. A bit too much like WWII Reichsbahn service.

That’s how US Customs handled the “Atlantic” which stopped at several stations in the US on 200 miles of Canadian Pacific track across Maine between Montreal and Saint John, New Brunswick.

A small metal “tag” was looped through an eyelet on all doors except in the car where the US Customs & INS Inspector rode.... only checking passengers getting off in the US. The inspector could see if the tag had been tampered with but it could easily snap-off in an emergency if the door had to be opened.

On the original CPR Atlantic Limited, only coach passengers and those getting off in Maine had been inspected by US Custom and Immigration......Sleeping Car passengers were just left alone.

When VIA restored the Atlantic after it had been discontinued for several years in the 1980s.....US Officials insisted all passengers would now be inspected. Eastbound Sleeping Car passengers were wakened at 3am ET in Jackman, Maine. Westbound wasn’t as bad: 9pm ET (10pm AT) at Vanceboro. The trains were running long and full so there were major delays in clearing the train.

It took a couple of years of negotiations but eventually the train was Sealed while crossing through the US. Anyone boarding in the US was checked by Canada Customs when the trains crossed back into Canada at McAdam NB or Lac Megantic, Quebec

The Atlantic was discontinued in December 1994. Wonder how things would be handled today if the Atlantic was still running in these post 9-11 times!

Amtrak had a train running through Canada between Buffalo and Detroit. It was purely an Amtrak train only and not a joint operation with VIA. The Empire State Express (later: The Niagara Rainbow) was extended from Buffalo to Detroit in 1974 on 250 miles of Penn Central (later Conrail) track across southern Ontario. Originally it ran non-stop through Canada but eventually stops were added at Windsor, St. Thomas and Fort Erie. This was the only train where you could purchase an Amtrak ticket between two Canadian points.

From The Museum of Railway Timetables:

http://www.timetables.org/full.php?grou ... &item=0044" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

There was a separate coach to handle the Canadian passengers who were inspected when the train entered the US. The time I rode...only those getting off in Canada were inspected by Canada Customs. Don’t believe passengers riding through between US points were even questioned. Back in Nov 1977, I was riding from Detroit to Fort Erie, ON and had been inspected by Canada Customs in Windsor so I had no problem being let off at St. Thomas ON to get this photo:



Prior to Amtrak this route was New York Central’s (later Penn Central’s) mainline from Detroit to Buffalo and on to Boston and New York. From a 1950s NYC Timetable.....there were 7 trains a day each way, some operating in multiple sections and some with sleeping cars only. Hundreds of passengers passing thru Canada between US destinations daily and probably most people didn’t even realize it.

And if you go way back to the ‘60s: A Canadian Pacific RDC run between Montreal and Boston would cross into the US for about 10 miles to serve a couple of Vermont towns then crossed back into Canada for 10 miles to a stop in Quebec then finally back into Vermont. Don’t know how US and Canadian Customs handled this one!

gokeefe wrote:My point about the California Zephyr is not to say that it should go but merely to observe that it is by far the weakest of the three major Western transcontinental trains.

For being "far weakest" it's been doing well lately. No. 1 in ridership for Long Distance trains for February 2016, much more than the Southwest Chief:

1.
California Zephyr
28,065
+18.3 percent over February 2015

2.
Empire Builder
26,626
+2.4

3.
Coast Starlight
26,141
+6.3

4.
Palmetto
25,870
+114.9

5.
Silver Star
23,821
-3.2

6.
Silver Meteor
22,543
+7.0

7.
Lake Shore Limited
20,933
+6.7

8.
Southwest Chief
19,613
-0.9

--Mark Meyer

I love it! Thanks, Mark. I hadn't realized that the Zephyr had vaulted to the top in February.

But to be fair, the Zephyr's robust performance was explained in the Monthly Report. That 18% leap is mostly due to an added sleeper, and more cutout cars at Reno.

Here the "Zephyr" is Evidence #1 that added capacity will help all of Amtrak, both long distance on the LD trains, like the added sleeper. And on corridors overlapping the LD routes, with the cutout cars in this case being like fat buds on a 'corridor' that hasn't yet bloomed.

It's solid evidence that even small improvements -- one more (well, 6 more, really) sleeper, and a couple of cutout cars -- can make a marked difference.

There'll be network effects, too, almost immeasurable but real nonetheless, from the stronger Amtrak brand. When somebody in Sacramento or Oakland needs to travel, they're more likely to think, "I'll see if a train goes there", if they've just enjoyed a weekend in Reno. So over time, more Coast Starlight riders to Portland or Santa Barbara, more riders to Bakersfield and Fresno on the San Joaquins. At the other end, a sleeper full of riders arrives CHI, and 30% of them will transfer to other LD or corridor trains, which also benefit.

I'm impressed that Amtrak was able to get that kind of movement in ridership in a single month. That shows some serious pent up demand.

Apparently without anyone here noticing it Amtrak has been appropriated $20,000,000 towards restoring passenger rail service in the most recent Transportation Bill.

Cross posted from the Cardinal Discussion Thead:

gokeefe wrote:Every once in a while you find something like this:

From WCPO-TV in Cincinnati:

CINCINNATI — “Low-hanging fruit.”

That’s what railroad advocates have called restoring daily train service between Cincinnati and Chicago, hot off Congress' adoption of a new set of laws governing America’s interstate highways and railways over the next five years.
...
In the law, earmarks tax dollars specifically for maintaining, operating and enhancing Amtrak service — to the tune of $8 billion over the next five years.

Of the $8 billion Amtrak would get if the bill becomes law, $20 million each year would go toward “restoration and enhancement of passenger rail service," which is precisely what advocates want to see here in Cincinnati.

This is the first I have heard of these funds. I have no idea if they will be used for operating funds or capital improvements but its worth noting that Amtrak will in fact be receiving a funding increase to pay for increasing service. This is the first time in many many years that I can recall that Amtrak will receive appropriated funds specifically targeted towards increasing service.

NS VIA FAN wrote:

Sisko24 wrote:
That's interesting, sealed, huh? That sounds creepy to me. A bit too much like WWII Reichsbahn service.

That’s how US Customs handled the “Atlantic” which stopped at several stations in the US on 200 miles of Canadian Pacific track across Maine between Montreal and Saint John, New Brunswick.

A small metal “tag” was looped through an eyelet on all doors except in the car where the US Customs & INS Inspector rode.... only checking passengers getting off in the US. The inspector could see if the tag had been tampered with but it could easily snap-off in an emergency if the door had to be opened.

On the original CPR Atlantic Limited, only coach passengers and those getting off in Maine had been inspected by US Custom and Immigration......Sleeping Car passengers were just left alone.

When VIA restored the Atlantic after it had been discontinued for several years in the 1980s.....US Officials insisted all passengers would now be inspected. Eastbound Sleeping Car passengers were wakened at 3am ET in Jackman, Maine. Westbound wasn’t as bad: 9pm ET (10pm AT) at Vanceboro. The trains were running long and full so there were major delays in clearing the train.

It took a couple of years of negotiations but eventually the train was Sealed while crossing through the US. Anyone boarding in the US was checked by Canada Customs when the trains crossed back into Canada at McAdam NB or Lac Megantic, Quebec

The Atlantic was discontinued in December 1994. Wonder how things would be handled today if the Atlantic was still running in these post 9-11 times!

Amtrak had a train running through Canada between Buffalo and Detroit. It was purely an Amtrak train only and not a joint operation with VIA. The Empire State Express (later: The Niagara Rainbow) was extended from Buffalo to Detroit in 1974 on 250 miles of Penn Central (later Conrail) track across southern Ontario. Originally it ran non-stop through Canada but eventually stops were added at Windsor, St. Thomas and Fort Erie. This was the only train where you could purchase an Amtrak ticket between two Canadian points.

From The Museum of Railway Timetables:

http://www.timetables.org/full.php?grou ... &item=0044" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

There was a separate coach to handle the Canadian passengers who were inspected when the train entered the US. The time I rode...only those getting off in Canada were inspected by Canada Customs. Don’t believe passengers riding through between US points were even questioned. Back in Nov 1977, I was riding from Detroit to Fort Erie, ON and had been inspected by Canada Customs in Windsor so I had no problem being let off at St. Thomas ON to get this photo:

Prior to Amtrak this route was New York Central’s (later Penn Central’s) mainline from Detroit to Buffalo and on to Boston and New York. From a 1950s NYC Timetable.....there were 7 trains a day each way, some operating in multiple sections and some with sleeping cars only. Hundreds of passengers passing thru Canada between US destinations daily and probably most people didn’t even realize it.

And if you go way back to the ‘60s: A Canadian Pacific RDC run between Montreal and Boston would cross into the US for about 10 miles to serve a couple of Vermont towns then crossed back into Canada for 10 miles to a stop in Quebec then finally back into Vermont. Don’t know how US and Canadian Customs handled this one!

Some college pals and I regularly took Amtrak home from college in upstate New York to NYC and environs and on one occasion we got the Niagara Rainbow. We met friendly folks from Detroit onboard and we had a good discussion about college sports, (particularly Michigan v. Michigan State). I remember thinking that I'd like to ride that train just to be able to say I'd been through the Detroit River tunnel. But alas, the train ended before I got the chance.

Worth asking:

For $20,000,000 what route would you restore?

Given that its a one time appropriation let's assume that these are capital funds for trackwork and some marketing startup. Perhaps some matching funds for station work. I'm curious if perhaps there is a route that these funds are already intended for.

The Montrealer is one possible example. $20,000,000 would probably take Amtrak "over the top" on restoring that service. That seems to me like an option that has some political weight behind it.

The Broadway Limited is another one. But I don't think Amtrak has sufficient rolling stock. If used creatively (CAF order options, foodservice car conversions) I think this might do the trick as well.

The Gulf Coaster (NOL-ORL) is an intriguing possibility and perhaps among the more obvious options. This service also has good political support as I noted in the Sunset Limited thread. I think this one might be our winner.

The Silver Palm (via FEC). I was about to write this one down in the lower list but given the Brightline development I am left wondering if this is now a "possible".

There aren't any other obvious options that come to mind beyond these four.

I can also come up with a pretty easy list of routes that we know this is not going to be used for:

North Coast Hiawatha (previously priced at $1,000,000,000).

Sunset Limited (East) revival.

Desert Wind

Pioneer

Lone Star

Floridian

National Limited

Interesting that two out of the four possible options are in the Southeast. Given the federal funding I have a feeling this money is headed to the Sunbelt.

How about additional day service on an existing route ? For the east that is a day train thru Ohio or maybe a day train NYP - ATL ?
Also maybe CHI - Cincinnati ? More train miles and car miles over present routes eliminating most expenses of new stations, additional agents. etc.
Of course the problem of the needed equipment is serious. That is for example the need for 2 complete train sets if the day train only needs it. ATL - <> NYP is one and can rotate equipment thru NEC use. But there is not enough Amflee-2s to have any train assigned them except maybe for Business class ?

How about additional day service on an existing route ? For the east that is a day train thru Ohio or maybe a day train NYP - ATL ?
Also maybe CHI - Cincinnati ? More train miles and car miles over present routes eliminating most expenses of new stations, additional agents. etc.
Of course the problem of the needed equipment is serious. That is for example the need for 2 complete train sets if the day train only needs it. ATL - <> NYP is one and can rotate equipment thru NEC use which might reduce car numbers needed slightly.. But there is not enough Amflee-2s to have any new train assigned them except maybe for Business class car ?
Another point is that equipment used for another train is not going to be able to be assigned to the east coast trains that each set needs at least one additional coach and maybe more

This is only a problem if you assume that Amfleet IIs must be used. The Gulf Coaster (NOL-ORL) would almost certainly be able to use Amfleet I cars.

I thought the idea was for Horizon cars for the Gulf route.

Jeff Smith wrote:I thought the idea was for Horizon cars for the Gulf route.

They're going to be delayed for availability until the bi-level cars come out. In the meantime it now looks to me as if the so-called Gulf Coaster (credit to Backshophoss) for the potential name ... may implemented before Amtrak can get those cars available, hence the need for additional scrounging.

Worth noting ... and I've completely forgotten this: NOL-ORL is a high clearance route. Amtrak could come up with the necessary rolling stock for this train through Superliner wreck rebuilds. $20,000,000 would absolutely be enough.