• Future of Septa Regional Rail Fleet

  • Discussion relating to Southeastern Pennsylvania Transportation Authority (Philadelphia Metro Area). Official web site can be found here: www.septa.com. Also including discussion related to the PATCO Speedline rapid transit operated by Delaware River Port Authority. Official web site can be found here: http://www.ridepatco.org/.
Discussion relating to Southeastern Pennsylvania Transportation Authority (Philadelphia Metro Area). Official web site can be found here: www.septa.com. Also including discussion related to the PATCO Speedline rapid transit operated by Delaware River Port Authority. Official web site can be found here: http://www.ridepatco.org/.

Moderator: AlexC

  by ElectricTraction
 
sammy2009 wrote: Sun Aug 08, 2021 9:13 pmI wonder if it would be possible if Bombardier made a single level version of the next upcoming MLV III ? It looks like it could be done. Just a random thought.
An EMU Comet car? The OG MLs were double decker adaptations of Comet Vs. They should make Comet VI cars, there are a number of services and lines that don't need double deckers and would be better served with slightly longer trains of Comet VI.
njtmnrrbuff wrote: Thu Aug 26, 2021 4:29 pmDon't get your hopes up of the Silverliner IVs lasting until the 2041-2015 time frame. I could perhaps see the Silverliner Vs lasting until that time frame. However, the IVs are like 47 years old. Presently, Septa is looking into replacing them down the road.
Anything can be made to last as long as the frame isn't cracked or otherwise failing. It just depends on how uneconomical it is to keep rebuilding stuff. Diesel road switchers apparently can be rebuilt almost infinitely, they are rebuilding units from the 1950's.
  by PHLSpecial
 
ElectricTraction

Sure the anything can we rebuilt but the Silverliner IV are a bit dated with its interiors and doors. I would prefer that we got rid of those swing doors, have luggage racks and bike racks. Also have larger windows, seating that is not bench style, larger aisles. Most of my list is possible if they decide to rebuild the SLIV. The big thing is I hope the SLVI is going to be lighter than the SLV and it's still single level.
  by mcgrath618
 
Any SLVI order will likely be a proven product, like the new M9s on the MTA. I’m pretty sure SEPTA at this point has realized how bad of an idea multi-level EMUs were for their infrastructure. At least, that’s the vibe I got from people on the inside.
  by ElectricTraction
 
It really comes down to the economics of rebuild vs. new. At some point, stuff becomes so hard and costly to service it's time for something new. SLVI should also have bathrooms, that's the #1 thing wrong with the SL cars.

Single level makes a lot more sense than double level on the NEC unless double level is absolutely needed, and AFAIK, the only place they are is NJT into Penn, and thus MN/CDOT if they ever got their act together on through running.

There needs to be standard designs for various types of equipment. A good single level EMU design should be equally at home on MARC, SEPTA, NJT, MN-Penn, CDOT, MBTA, RTD, etc. Same for single-level coaches, single level DMUs, etc. NJT double deckers should stay a bespoke solution to NJT and MN-Penn. All third rail stuff is necessarily bespoke to NYC, since no one else uses third rail. The southern/western railroads already have pretty much standardized on a single gallery design and a single bi-level design, yet the NEC railroads constantly re-invent the wheel, even for stuff that should otherwise be compatible. Make an EMU/DMU/third rail design clear NYP/NJT/LIRR and work on 25hz/60hz as appropriate, then it will work anywhere.
  by rcthompson04
 
Discussions of new rolling stock will require seeing what future utilization rates are in the next few years. Running 65% of the pre Covid trains long term will mean a lot less rolling stock being needed.

I want to see how the new Siemens push pull sets Amtrak is getting perform. If those sets perform well, a commuter version might be a good alternative for replacing the Silverliner IVs.
  by Head-end View
 
My understanding is that Electric MU's are much more efficient for local commuter service like SEPTA's with very frequent station stops. Push-pull trains are said to be slower accelerating and braking.
  by rcthompson04
 
Head-end View wrote: Mon Aug 30, 2021 7:15 pm My understanding is that Electric MU's are much more efficient for local commuter service like SEPTA's with very frequent station stops. Push-pull trains are said to be slower accelerating and braking.
Single level electric MUs are the best solution, but there might be a situation where a good push pull set might be a good Silverliner IV replacement specifically if there aren't any good single level EMUs out there off the shelf, SEPTA's ridership never recovers especially at off peak times (they seem particularly dead at off peak times right now), and you can expand service with a hybrid push pull set (a lot cheaper to go to Phoenixville, West Chester and Perkasie if you don't have to hang wire).
  by R36 Combine Coach
 
rcthompson04 wrote: Tue Aug 31, 2021 7:00 am Single level electric MUs are the best solution, but there might be a situation where a good push pull set might be a good Silverliner IV replacement specifically if there aren't any good single level EMUs out there off the shelf
mcgrath618 wrote: Fri Aug 27, 2021 11:33 am Any SLVI order will likely be a proven product, like the new M9s on the MTA. I’m pretty sure SEPTA at this point has realized how bad of an idea multi-level EMUs were for their infrastructure.
That would suggest the M-8 as a off-the shelf choice. Kawasaki is known for reliability and durability
and would have made full circle here, originally breaking into the North American market with the
1981 City and Interurban cars.
  by Head-end View
 
I may have missed something here. Why are multi-level EMU's bad for SEPTA's infrastructure?
  by jonnhrr
 
PHLSpecial wrote: Wed Jul 14, 2021 9:33 am
ekt8750 wrote: Wed Jul 14, 2021 8:10 am
ExCon90 wrote: Tue Jul 13, 2021 10:33 pm Also, there are some beautiful trees occupying the median farther in, whose removal would incur plenty of backlash. An interesting dilemma for the tree-huggers: trees or electric rail transportation?
They actually can be relocated to line the tracks without killing them if done right.
Exactly, we would need to convinced to look at the bigger picture and you are removing cars off the road. Plenty of space on the in parking lots and open grass to replant the trees. The LRT would remove one lane of traffic. Connect people to SAP, West Chester, and possibly West Chester University.
Should these posts be moved to a separate "Restoration of former Red Arrow trolley routes" thread, so that they are not lost within the Regional Rail fleet discussion?
  by scratchyX1
 
Head-end View wrote: Tue Aug 31, 2021 6:48 pm I may have missed something here. Why are multi-level EMU's bad for SEPTA's infrastructure?
ADA compliance, and easier to source stock that would only require one crew for opening traps to allow for RER type service
  by PHLSpecial
 
Head-end View wrote: Tue Aug 31, 2021 6:48 pm I may have missed something here. Why are multi-level EMU's bad for SEPTA's infrastructure?
The multi-level boarding and off loading process takes longer. Multi-levels are good for express service where boarding occur less often. ADA or people who have trouble taking the stairs would have problems boarding a multi-level train. Space inefficient, not good for low platforms, more difficult for conductors to check tickets. Though we need high platforms for all stations. Single level would be the best for Septa given how close together the stations are.
  by rcthompson04
 
Regarding the M8s, I wonder how hard it would be to modify the design for lower level boarding. I presume removing the third rail equipment would be quite easy.
  by Head-end View
 
Probably could be done. After all Hyundai-Rotem was able to do pretty much the same thing on their Silverliner V's so a smarter builder like Kawasaki shouldn't have a problem.
  by Head-end View
 
PHLSpecial wrote: Wed Sep 01, 2021 11:14 am
Head-end View wrote: Tue Aug 31, 2021 6:48 pm I may have missed something here. Why are multi-level EMU's bad for SEPTA's infrastructure?
The multi-level boarding and off loading process takes longer. Multi-levels are good for express service where boarding occur less often. ADA or people who have trouble taking the stairs would have problems boarding a multi-level train. Space inefficient, not good for low platforms, more difficult for conductors to check tickets. Though we need high platforms for all stations. Single level would be the best for Septa given how close together the stations are.
All of your points pretty much make sense. But interesting that NJ Transit seems to cope with most of the same issues. Mixed high and low platforms in local service. But I agree that SEPTA's more frequent, closely spaced stops might tip the scales in favor of single-level MU's.
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