Future of Septa Regional Rail Fleet

R36 Combine Coach wrote: ↑Tue Aug 31, 2021 4:36 pmThat would suggest the M-8 as a off-the shelf choice. Kawasaki is known for reliability and durability
and would have made full circle here, originally breaking into the North American market with the
1981 City and Interurban cars.

The M-8 is a great railcar, but it is a bespoke solution for GCT access from lines electrified with overhead catenary, and that's it. No 25hz, no low-level boarding, it's a bespoke solution for one particular line and it's branches, and has no place outside of that particular service (or the Hudson Line if electrification were extended using overhead AC power).

A generic EMU design for the NEC should be devised that would be shared with NJT/CDOT NYP, MBTA, and SEPTA that offers 25hz and low level boarding without all the extra weight and complexity brought on by having third rail equipment.

Head-end View wrote: ↑Tue Aug 31, 2021 6:48 pmI may have missed something here. Why are multi-level EMU's bad for SEPTA's infrastructure?

MLs that can access high level platforms and clear the North River Tunnels are a highly compromised design that should be a last resort if all other capacity is already used up. Bilevels out west make a lot more sense, as you get in on a low level platform at the lower level height, and there is enough height on both levels for them not to be cramped. I can't really think of a good use case on the NEC for MLs other than NJT, since they are capacity constrained through the North River Tunnels, and also for CDOT if they ever get their act together with through-running the NYP service so as to be able to through-run peak slots with NJT.

Everyone: MU cars similar to the Silverliner Five fleet should be what SEPTA orders to replace the aging S4 cars.
MU cars offer the best flexibility for the SEPTA RRD operation as it now stands.

Any other car type - bilevel MU or locomotive-hauled coaches/fixed trainset - has some negatives.
SEPTA RRD has close proximity stations on many lines and the mix of high and low level platforms.

There are "niche" applications for the ACS64 motors and P/P cars on some high ridership trains that travel a
substantial distance and make limited stops - Thorndale and Newark, DE routes are the best examples.

The thought of a basic single-level catenary power AC MU car for northeastern applications is a good idea.
SEPTA RRD can "take the lead" and design this new MU that other rail transport systems can adopt.

The Silverliner Six should be the one and only new RRD fleet move in the 2020s decade.
The SEPTA order should be around 230 to 250 MU cars...MACTRAXX

Single level MUs are the best idea for Silverliner IV replacements. Basically the entire Septa RRD operation is like a glorified bus company where many of the station stops are less than a mile apart. Plus the Septa RRD trains run local. Running a bilevel MU on local trains like out to Doylestown isn't really the best fit. However, running bilevel locomotive hauled trains on the expresses that run to Newark, DEL is fine. As you get south of Highland Ave Station in Chester, the stops become more spread out. The same thing goes with the Paoli/Thorndale Line west of Paoli. Single level MUs do great accelerating out of those stations on the Paoli/Thorndale Line on the local trains.

Head-end View wrote: ↑Wed Sep 01, 2021 7:18 pm A smarter builder like Kawasaki shouldn't have a problem.

Unlike Rotem, CRRC or even BBD, I seem to have faith in Kawasaki able to deliver a well built product. They have
been know to able to custom design and modify the product to the customer's specs. The 1981 City and
Interurban cars were being built at a time when they had no prior experience in North America whatsoever,
and working with the client, they developed a custom product built to order that ended up being highly reliable
and successful.

S5: There is no information posted anyplace in the CRRC site that mentions anything else about the SEPTA
multilevel car/order let alone they are in process of building these cars...If CRRC's timeline of their delays
in the MBTA contract for the Orange and Red Line car fleets is any indication SEPTA this may be indefinite...

PHL: VERY unpopular opinion about stainless steel passenger railcars that I wholehartedly disagree with...
Stainless steel passenger railcars - as designed originally by Philadelphia's own Budd Company - built to last.
Solid stainless steel rail car equipment can have a very long life provided that they are properly maintained.
The best examples around Philadelphia are the Silverliner Four cars and Amtrak's Amfleet One and Two cars
which look fine despite their fortysomething ages (Ex: S4 1974-75-76 =48-47-46 y/o) in daily rail service.

For SEPTA a Silverliner Six should be a single level MU car that at least should be compatible with the S5 fleet.
The order should be about 200 to 225 cars to outright replace the aging (but holding up well despite) S4 cars.
Right now the funding to purchase this needed fleet is not available - but should be at or near the top of the
priority list for the remainder of the 2020s decade for SEPTA Regional Rail...MACTRAXX

MACTRAXX wrote: ↑Mon Jan 17, 2022 1:56 pm For SEPTA a Silverliner Six should be a single level MU car that at least should be compatible with the S5 fleet.
The order should be about 200 to 225 cars to outright replace the aging (but holding up well despite) S4 cars.
Right now the funding to purchase this needed fleet is not available - but should be at or near the top of the
priority list for the remainder of the 2020s decade for SEPTA Regional Rail...MACTRAXX

I am curious how "the Problem" (a phrase you use that I have stolen in real life) is impacting wear and tear on Silverliners. It might have bought SEPTA a few more years.

I agree 1000% with Mactraxx's commentary on stainless steel construction for railcars. Look no further than the 70 year old Budd RDC's that are still around and even older, the 1937 built Reading Crusader observation car at RRMPA which looks almost as good as the day it entered service.

I see I have hit a big note. Budd is and always will be reliable. If you are going to keep the stainless look the bodies of the cars need better shaping. As of today Budd is not coming back sadly. But would be nice to have something shaped nicely not like metro north. Same with the Amfleets, while reliable it really gets cold onboard.

If Septa wants a New Silverliner 6 they should look into these

These as well

I live for the day that Septa will run 6-8 car sets on all the routes. First is actually using TOD on all stations with massive parking lots.

The looks of the Tokyu and Jre are nice. Hopefully they all have good acceleration

S5 - I joined the RR.net Forums almost 17 years ago (2/7/2005) and I remember a reply I got concerning
a similar category which was: $$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$
A new Silverliner Six fleet will cost between $400 and $500 million dollars at $2 million dollars/each car.
The funding has to be in place for SEPTA to get a start on procuring this needed RRD car fleet.

RCT: I agree with your thought that "The Problem" has bought SEPTA some time for the aging S4 fleet.
In this regard alone the S4 cars will easily reach 50 years of service and then some. The 1963 Silverliner
Two fleet as a comparison were retired in 2012 when they were 49 years old - almost ten years ago now.

PHL: The longest train SEPTA operates normally is six MU or 6/7 push-pull cars before "The Problem".
Let's build the RRD ridership back towards the 2019 level before there is any talk of service expansion.

One of the best RRD examples of station parking expansion and TOD can be found in Lansdale Borough.
There has been NIMBY opposition in cases of adding additional parking - coming to mind is the strong
local opposition to construction of a Jenkintown Station parking garage - to busy RRD stations. As for
the case of Transit Oriented Development it depends on the individual station and local governments.
Some will welcome TOD development (Lansdale) while other station locations might not...MACTRAXX

MACTRAXX wrote: ↑Thu Jan 20, 2022 6:03 am PHL: The longest train SEPTA operates normally is six MU or 6/7 push-pull cars before "The Problem".
Let's build the RRD ridership back towards the 2019 level before there is any talk of service expansion.

I think the longest consist I have seen recently have had 5 cars. I take the opposite approach of most. I rather have shorter consists with more frequent service. On most lines anything longer than 5 cars is a real stretch anyway.

rcthompson04 wrote: ↑Thu Jan 20, 2022 3:29 pm

MACTRAXX wrote: ↑Thu Jan 20, 2022 6:03 am PHL: The longest train SEPTA operates normally is six MU or 6/7 push-pull cars before "The Problem".
Let's build the RRD ridership back towards the 2019 level before there is any talk of service expansion.

I think the longest consist I have seen recently have had 5 cars. I take the opposite approach of most. I rather have shorter consists with more frequent service. On most lines anything longer than 5 cars is a real stretch anyway.

I'm well aware the 2045 plan is to run more two car train sets every 15 minutes. Obviously the main problems is the signaling, lack of a tracks and sidings, interlockings like Phil interlocking and lack of high platforms.

The RR was growing from the late 1990s to 2014? Than ride saving became huge because it was cheap for the first few years. Septa knows the problems they have and me spamming it doesn't help. All I'm hoping for is Septa to grow the RR ridership through smart investments on whatever money they receive.

Does anyone know what routes will these multi-levels will be used on?

PHLSpecial wrote: ↑Thu Jan 20, 2022 5:22 pm
Does anyone know what routes will these multi-levels will be used on?

The Multi Levels would be used on the wilmington line, trenton line, paoli/thorndale line and west trenton line