Adirondack Scenic Railroad (ADIX) Discussion - 2013

Looks like they're planning carpools and even busses to stuff the meetings.

The talking point that 'snowmobilers put millions of dollars into the economy' is questionable at best, as is the estimate of the proceeds from tearing up the tracks.

I do see that they're told not to mention ATVs...

And this is what we're up against on the railroad side - sheer masses from both the snowmobile and trail side vs a smaller presence supporting rails.

We can only hope that reasoned, factual comments from rail supporters will win out over the repeated "tear up the rails" lament from the "other side."

Take all of this into consideration when crafting your letter or email. Pointing out the fallacies of the trail arguments is particularly important, as is pointing out that removing the rails may only increase the already extant snowmobile season by maybe a couple of weeks on each end (I was told by a sledder this weekend that the corridor actually has better sledding earlier than the surrounding woods...)

The sled community has already recognized that form letters don't work. Perhaps the similarity of their "tear up the tracks" cry will get the same reception.

Anyone here attend the first meeting? Updates?

I was at Old Forge last night. Did not see any evidence of busloads (or even carloads) of pro-snomobile fanatics packing the meeting. As stated in the meeting announcements, this was NOT a forum where people stood up in front of the crowd and made their statements with the audience clapping or booing the result. There were four identical tables setup around the room, with a flip chart and a DOT/ DEC staffer listening to comments from anyone that approached them. They would write the comments on the flip chart page (along with the name of the person making them), and when it was full, post it on the wall for all to see. Also, there were comment sheets that could be submitted. Those want to a staffer on a computer, and he typed them into a Powerpoint presentation that was displayed for all to see.

Based on what I saw, I would say the group was largely pro-railroad. Lots of people walking around with RR stickers on them, and the comments I saw more favored the RR (or rails AND trails) than remove the rails.

There was a short presentation by DOT/ DEC to start the meeting, where they showed the history of the corridor. After that, they asked if people had any questions about the process they were following. While not intended to be a forum for comments on the corridor, a few comments were brought forth. I thought the most interesting one was made by a gentleman who I believe said he was the president of the NYS Snomobilers Association. When I first heard him say who he was, I was expecting to hear something about how removing the rails would be a great thing for snomobiling. Instead, his comment indicated a concern that re-opening the corridor UMP might actually endanger snomobile use on the corridor as it would open up the possibility of some or all of it reverting to forever wild. It was the most surprising thing I heard all night.

Today's meeting is in Ray Brook, and is likely to be one of the more anti-rail venues, but we will see. I won't be there, but do plan on going to the Utica meeting next Monday.

Great news that there were neither busloads nor large carloads of anti-rail ranters present.

I'm familiar with the technique described... I've used it in the workplace many a time. The next step will probably be for the DEC to take back and consolidate all of the feedback that has been collected. It will probably be grouped (affinitized).

Depending on whether they actually <count> the number of comments they receive, it's possible that a room stuffed full with one point of view won't have as much influence as they might think on the process. If they actually do count as they group the comments, it's still theoretically possible to stuff the ballot box-- but somehow I doubt this.

We can hope that they actually review and consider the comments and assign some value to them. As such, I would hope that dollars and cents and sound business plans from a few would trump "it'll make the sledding season a little longer" from a large number of people.

We can also hope that the dearth of sledders and trail people is an indication of their true support. Old Forge is a major snowmobile center - if the merchants there are supporting the railroad for the most part, then they must realize that the sledding season is what it is, with little change if the tracks came up, but that the railroad represents the potential for growth.

We still need to send in comments, even if we don't attend the hearings themselves. Once those are in, we can again hope that the cool, calm, collected business plans win out over the hysterical "take up the rails" sentiments.

By the way, the trail nuts (as opposed to us, the rail nuts ) read railroad.net, too: https://www.facebook.com/theadirondackr ... ed_comment" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

RussNelson wrote:By the way, the trail nuts (as opposed to us, the rail nuts ) read railroad.net, too: https://www.facebook.com/theadirondackr ... ed_comment" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

I like this comment: "The equipment in Lake Placid wasn't flown there, and when locomotives are serviced in Utica, they don't take a bus to get there."

As a avid snowmobiler I can say that the sport does bring in lots of business in the winter. How much is hard to say but I'll spend as much as $3K over a two week stay. There are 8 of us in the group so we do spend a lot of cash during our stay.

Personally I would like to see the rails be put back in service but I dont really see the business justification. The only thing that will stop this debate is for the rail to open and generate enough revenue to fund its self. Until that happens there will always be pressure to remove the tracks and the longer it takes the stronger argument the rail trail supporters have..

Right about snowmobiling being an expensive sport, only for the elite, but consider that 1) having no rails would extend the season by only a few weeks, and 2) having no trees near the right-of-way creates a hole for the snow to fall into. No railroad, not as much tree trimming, not as much snow, shorter season offsetting the longer season. And opening up the UMP to revision makes a hole for the "forever wilders" to try to take back the railbed. They DEFINITELY prefer Alternative 1.

And you're right about the railroad not owning the rails. It puts them into a political situation rather than an economic one. On the other hand, the economic situation OFTEN resulted in railroads going bankrupt and getting dismantled.

From 1985 to 1991, while camping in the Adirondacks, I remember all those trees growing between the rails, not to mention the washouts. How usable was the line for snowmobiles then? Given the difficulty of getting past the trees and the washouts previously, I think the snow machine crowd should thank the railroad for reopening the line for them. Could hikers get throught there easily either? Maybe, better than the sleds, anyway, but even for them, the ROW is in better shape for hiking as it is now, so you could say they owe some thanks as well.


I saw that comment about the rail salvage on facebook. I'd like to point out, this is New York State. No matter that the salvage money COULD be used for a trail, doesn't mean it WILL be. I'm sure if NYS wanted the money for something else, they'd use it for that instead.


Scott K.

RussNelson wrote:By the way, the trail nuts (as opposed to us, the rail nuts ) read railroad.net, too: https://www.facebook.com/theadirondackr ... ed_comment" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Those people are just a bunch of spoiled children who want something from their mommy, New York State. They think because the state owns it, they're somehow entitled to it. Their only justification is to claim that somehow the state will be better off giving it to them, because like the kid who wants a new puppy they will be sure to walk it and clean up after it and feed it and we all know how that usually turns out.

Here's a fact-free comment from whomever "The Adirondack Rail Trail" is:

It's time for the rest of the communities to realize the reality of the situation and grab what will be this one chance in our lifetime to change a situation that could very well stop the hemorrhaging of life from our communities. Those towns and villages that have not already done so need to step up and vote to remove the tracks.

Arguing with these folks reminds me of a quote attributed to Mark Twain and others: "Never try to teach a pig to sing. It wastes your time and annoys the pig."

RussNelson wrote:By the way, the trail nuts (as opposed to us, the rail nuts ) read railroad.net, too: https://www.facebook.com/theadirondackr ... ed_comment" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

You'll notice that they fail to mention that the money the state puts into "the railroad" goes to keep the corridor open (including for the snowmobilers), not to fund railroad operations.

So the state will still need to put that money into the corridor. The only difference is that it will go into someone else's pockets...

The third public meeting with the DOT and DEC regarding the review of the Remsen-Lake Placid management plan is today in Utica, NY at the State Office Building, 207 Genesee Street from 1 to 4pm.