Adirondack Scenic Railroad (ADIX) Discussion - 2013

umtrr-author wrote:Here's a fact-free comment from whomever "The Adirondack Rail Trail" is:

It's time for the rest of the communities to realize the reality of the situation and grab what will be this one chance in our lifetime to change a situation that could very well stop the hemorrhaging of life from our communities. Those towns and villages that have not already done so need to step up and vote to remove the tracks.

Arguing with these folks reminds me of a quote attributed to Mark Twain and others: "Never try to teach a pig to sing. It wastes your time and annoys the pig."

This just continues to bewilder me. If the track was not in use and truly abandoned [ex. Peanut, WS, BR&P etc], I could see their reasoning for wanting to put it to their use. But it is being put to use by an operating company that uses those rails. How could anybody even give them hope or leverage to disprupt a business. They must smell a weakness somewhere and are trying to exploit it.

Would these people try to pull up CSX or NS trackage? What would CSX or NS do if they did try?

Attended the meeting this afternoon. Overwhelmingly pro rail. Last meeting is tomorrow night in Tupper Lake. That one will be interesting.

It is good news that the Utica meeting appears to have been so pro-rail, but I wonder if DOT is weighing this geographically. Utica is not where the battle will be; it will be from Big Moose north.

There may be a political expediant and a political solution whereby New York State will give something to both; Big Moose south to rail and Big Moose north to trail. There is much at stake in both camps and much pressure and strong constituentcy. The problem with the UMP is that it never gave any incentive for private or not-for-profit captial investment into the State owned corridor. ARPS has been beaten up as not fulfilling their mandate but nothing was ever given but a 30 day revockable permit. One does not fund $20 million plus with that kind of franchise. The UMP called for a 20 year concession. That never happened, now everyone is claiming rail failed and trails are the way to our dreams and prosperity. The trail folks would like everyone to forget that and if not heard the DOT / DEC may not remember or feel it is relevant.

I fear that logic and sound numbers may have little affect and we will see a compromise. The real concession is the entire railroad, Utica to Lake Placid. It needs to have a fair chance.

These are dangerous times for the rail lobby and they have to get out and form coalitions and partnerships. So far that does not seem to be happening, but the trail supporters are doing that as exemplifed in the multi-business coaltion of support, multi-recreation coalition with the snowmobilers and politically with some of the municipalities. The rail support has to embrace a wider appeal other than trains are neat, trains make more sense from an economic impact, trains can give handicapped access. That wider embrace is not going well for them if you read the papers and put your finger on the pulse of the North Country. As far as Big Moose south ... that capital has been spent and is not likely to be torn up and salvaged; too politically distastful. Big Moose north is another thing. If the North Country does not support it, all of the Utica support cannot off-set that easily. One more hearing in Tupper Lake, the eye of the storm. It may be too late. I sure hope not. The real winner or loser will be the North Country and if reports are accurate the trail folks are very strong and vocal there.

SST wrote:[But it is being put to use by an operating company that uses those rails.

They claim that it isn't. According to them, the tracks are in such bad shape that the ASRR cannot use the tracks even for equipment movement. They promise that they have no interest in interfering with railroad operations -- and that the railroad is free to continue operating on the tracks it runs tourist trains on.

They're lying, of course. To themselves even more than us. For the same reasons that a tourist railroad makes sense to us, by their reasoning, a rail-trail between the tourist railroad endpoints makes even more sense to them.

Every notice that you never hear of a rail-trail "failing?" I'd opine that's because they don't fail in any spectacular way (how does a trail go bankrupt?), instead slowly fading into obscurity, finally abandoned by whoever was maintaining them.

Spoke with an assemblyman tonight who gave a generally positive overview of how the sounding sessions are going, from the railroad point of view.

They also suggested that if the rails do come up, the snowmobile trail may very well disappear as well. Not something the snowmobilers have proven willing to hear.

If you haven't already made or sent in comments, you've got about a week to do so.

Rail trails also do not generate any revenue, like from ticket sales and have no payroll other than via public service.

So here we are dismantling rail and shutting down private payroll and revenue generation .... but nope a trail cannot go bankrupt, just become a larger liability.

I went to the Tupper Lake meeting. Probably 10X trailfans for every railfan. I was encouraged to see good questions on "our" side. I took photographs of most of the comment sheets if anybody wants to read them.

My read: the railroad is toast. People want to believe Tony's misdirections, so they believe them. My feeling that the trail will get a lot of use -- by locals. There will be a small number of new people who come to town, offset by the people who don't come because there's no railroad. There will be a tiny number -- maybe a hundred -- people each year who travel more than five miles out of any of the big towns: Tupper, Saranac, or Placid (I'm using the Catskill Scenic Trail as a comparable). Beyond those five mile limits you'll see a lot of ATV trespassing, in spite of the signs prohibiting it, and the gates blocking the trail. In the winter, you'll see the same snowmobilers who already come to town. They won't come any sooner or leave any later because even without the rails, the snow on the trail will melt sooner because of all the dirt spread onto it by the snowmobilers who ride right through the small muddy areas and turn them into big muddy areas.

All the hopes and dreams of the trail promoters will be for naught, AND there won't be a railroad either.

Don't put off taking the railroad for a ride. Make sure to take photographs so you can show your children that they rode on the last operating railroad deep within the blue line.

One important thing to remember: These meetings are to determine if the UMP should be reviewed. If the state decides to reopen and review the UMP, then comments will be taken on what should be done with the corridor.

Remember, too, that they are accepting written comments - including yours - until the 25th.

I was also at the Tupper meeting. While I agree there were more pro-trail people there (mostly snowmobilers), it was not as lopsided as Russ will lead you to believe. The most significant thing I saw (I was there till the end) was that the snowmobiler/trail folks usually made one regurgitated comment like "the trail will have more economic impact" or "the railroad had their turn" and then left, while the rail supporters made sure to give multiple, well thought out FACTS like "the railroad creates jobs" or "the trail will not create jobs" or "the corridor can be better maintained as a working railroad vs. a volunteer maintained trail". This, in my opinion, balanced the comments out in favor of rail by the end of the evening. I also had a long talk with our friend Tony Goodwin and it is clear that ARTA does not want to be confused with the facts (and Tony has an ax to grind, just like the rest of ARTA). They also answered my question as to trail maintenance on "Day Two" and, surprise surprise, their plan calls for grant applications and volunteer labor. Their solution for fixing future washouts also made me laugh. "With the rails gone any normal construction vehicle can be used", meaning they plan to back up dump trucks 20 miles into the woods to fill them in. Seems smart to me.

I spoke to a few of the people who actually put the meetings on about the process. They are very professional and had to stay neutral on the subject, but, they assured me that they will be weighing all comments equally regardless of location. The better thought out comments with factual information will therefore carry more weight then the generic "we want a trail". If you have not done so already submit your comments. They will be more important than you think.

Oh, and by the way. The Wild Center is beautiful. Defiantly worth a visit.

Russ, good talking to you last night. I'm flattered that you give me credit for single-handedly ending rail service north of Thendara. The reality is that it is just plain economic sense that argues against restoring the rails. None of the rail services you and the others said would be possible with the line restored would possibly carry enough traffic to pay for ongoing maintenance and operations. The idea that it would be cheaper to ship logs to Ticonderoga via Utica and Albany just doesn't add up. There is the cost of loading from truck to train, and the circuity more than compensates for any fuel advantage the steel wheel has. Likewise, there might be a few others - but certainly not a train load - who would put their canoe on the train in Utica and not care if it took four hours to get to Lake Lila. With that timing, this would clearly be a camping trip - one where most of the first and last day would be spent "in transit". This hiker/boater shuttle idea and all of the pleas for taking the aged and infirm for a train ride only include relatively few individuals, but not enough to fill up a daily train over the entire corridor.

Remember that, even with all of the passengers that the Saratoga & North Creek RR has carried on their 60 mile route, Ed Ellis stated in Trains that, "... the passenger trains cover their above-the-rail costs." That means Iowa Pacific isn't paying for road bed maintenance (or apparently their creditors) unless they manage to start hauling a lot of tailings out of Tahawus.

Others can try and make our maintenance plans seem ludicrous by suggesting that a dump truck would have to back up 20 miles to fill a washout. Come on, you know there are many places to turn around closer to any washout than that.

The dump truck may have many places to turn around, but that will be irrelevant when it gets stuck. Snowmobilers get a free ride currently since the railroad maintains the right of way. Who is going to pay for the maintenance of the right of way once the railroad is gone? If the idea is to have New York State pay to maintain it, then what difference does it make if they pay to maintain the railroad or they pay to maintain the trail? There will be no cost savings, as washouts will be plentiful. Add to that the mud and other problems that will arise from high traffic once the dirt is put down and it isn't going to be any cheaper.
Removing the rails effectively severs the two sections for equipment moves, While they may not carry passengers, they still can move trains if need be. A trail will not bring in revenue which helps pay for said maintenance, the railroad does. New York State and the Adirondack Park has plenty of hiking trails and snowmobile trails, in which maintenance is also paid for on the New York taxpayer's dime. The railroad is an asset to the state, and once it is removed, it will be near impossible to rebuild it. Outside of Snowmobiling, I see no great mass of people coming to use the trail, since there are plenty of other places for hiking. The train appeals to a much wider demographic than the snowmobile. Not everyone is able to afford a snowmobile. Lest we forget the Adirondack Park Preserve was created for everyone to enjoy, not just an elite few.

Has an active rail line ever been ripped up to build a trail?

tahawus84 wrote:Has an active rail line ever been ripped up to build a trail?

Never. Not as far as I know, anyway. And it would be a really bad precedent to set. Think of all the short lines which would then be looking over their shoulder, e.g. the NYS&W's Utica Branch.