Adirondack Scenic Railroad (ADIX) Discussion - 2013

traingeek8223 wrote:"With the rails gone any normal construction vehicle can be used", meaning they plan to back up dump trucks 20 miles into the woods to fill them in.

I heard Tony say that, too. A little flabbergasting. I guess he's never seen a hyrail grader or a side-dump car.

If you have not done so already submit your comments. They will be more important than you think.

Yes, I second that. Emphasize the inconvenient facts, like "ATVers are known to ignore signs" (Tony says they don't) and "ATVers are known to go around barriers" (Tony thinks they can create put barriers at "choke points") and "ATVers are already riding on the railbed" (Tony thinks the trail folks are starting from a blank slate, as if there was not already ATV trespassers) and "The A in ATV stands for ALL, so explain again how the trail people are going to keep them out?" (Tony is whistling past the cemetery).

And y'know what else makes me *really* suspicious? There were a bunch of trail folks who all had the same T-shirt on. Who is buying them these T-shirts? Who is printing up the nice brochures? Who is printing up sticky labels? *Somebody* is investing a lot of money in this trail and clearly expects to profit from it. I'll bet they've got a grant from the Koch Brothers' Foundation. They're known to support lefty causes like the ACLU and cancer research. I'll bet they're funding this trail, too!

Tony Goodwin wrote:This hiker/boater shuttle idea and all of the pleas for taking the aged and infirm for a train ride only include relatively few individuals, but not enough to fill up a daily train over the entire corridor.

Well, there! It's settled! Tony hates the aged and infirm! Not only does he think that people who live in trailers are more likely to break the law by trespassing on a trail, he doesn't care about anybody who isn't physically fit enough to bicycle dozens of miles.

Ed Ellis stated in Trains that, "... the passenger trains cover their above-the-rail costs."

Welcome to passenger railroading, Tony. It has *never* been profitable except in some very dense markets. You are announcing yourself the enemy of all passenger railroading anywhere. Why don't you just jump into bed with Rand Paul, who wants to cut Amtrak funding? Because, oh, wait, he also wants to stop subsidizing trail creation, too, doesn't he? And you're already planning to start your trail with millions of dollars worth of subsidy (the rails you want pulled up). Hrm. You've got no friends in government, Tony.

Come on, you know there are many places to turn around closer to any washout than that.

Oh, you mean the same place you could put a trail-with-rail, right? I suggest you simply lose this point now, while you're only losing it a little.

And the other problem with your argument, Tony, is that you're trying to turn something about ethics and values into a pure money proposition. You say the railroad costs this amount and pays this much in taxes and brings in this many people, and you say the trail will cost this much less and bring in these many more people. You might be right. But you turn the decision into pure dollars and cents.

What are you going to say when the ATVers say "Look at the trail walkers and bicyclists. They bring in these many dollars. But our study says that a multi-use trail shared with ATVers will bring in this many more people and these many more dollars?"

You got nothing to say to them, because you've deliberately turned the argument to money.

You are doing a bad thing, Tony. I speculate that it's because you are a bad person, but I might be wrong. You can still redeem yourself by forsaking the trail. You can still save your soul!

The man behind ARTA with the check book is Lee Keet. Check out the Keet Foundation. He is, along with Tony, one of the four who had the meeting in Tupper Lake less than 2 years ago where the public widely panned the trail project. Keet left the meeting in a huff telling us we were making him "very angry". So, they hire petition carriers to attend bike events and say " would you like a world class bike trail", and instantly they have 12 thousand "supporters". Then they take turns writing an editorial in the Adirondack Daily Enterprise, ( which doesn't police it's editorial policy or fact check) to falsely impress on the public they are some huge grass roots organization. Keet also sit's on the executive board of North Country Public Radio, and his foundation is a major underwriter. Brian Mann has reported several articles on this topic and they seem far from being objective. The reporting is heavily biased in ARTA's favor for some odd reason. Keet has also contributed to our local congressman on a regular basis and others. Now he want's to end the public dialog about the railroad so he can influence the decision making out of the public eye I expect. Read his tirade editorial in Tuesday's Adirondack Daily Enterprise. BTW last summer I was at the 90 Miler canoe event and the ARTA petition carrier gave me the whole marketing pitch. My questions were not answered when I asked about the railroad, maintenance expense, etc. I declined to sign the petition, but was aggressively pursued and followed to the point when I had forcefully tell the carrier to back off. So, that is how we build grass roots support.

First of all, no member of the ARTA board stands to gain financially from this conversion. Our goal is to turn this state-owned resource into something that will help the residents and the economy of the towns and villages along its route. I don't believe any ARTA board member has questioned the motives of any rail supporters. We know that ARPS is a non-profit and that no one involved with ARPS is in it for the money. We have recognized that many rail supporters have worked very hard and even put significant amounts of their own money into the project to try and make their dream a reality. Unfortunately, after 20 years of trying the goal of extending to Lake Placid has not been realized and won't be unless the state comes up with tens of millions of dollars. Those tens of millions could be much better spent on other rail improvements in the state that would serve as true transportation rather than seasonal tourist excursions.

I am fully aware that nearly all passenger operations worldwide receive a subsidy to operate, and I'm not in favor of ending funding for Amtrak. Where Amtrak provides useful transportation to many, such a subsidy is an entirely appropriate use of public funds. Such public funds should not, however, be spent to provide service for a very limited group such as the "aged and infirm" - nice at it would be to do so.

I'm not sure that this back and forth is accomplishing very much, but Russ you need to check again on the Koch brothers. They do not support "lefty" causes, a statement that should make anyone question any of your other statements.

*duplicate post removed*

I had to sleep on this because if I responded immediately after Tony posted his comment my post would have likely been deleted and I would have been kicked off this forum.

"There are many places to turn around". Sure, if you want to drive down an embankment into wetlands and get the equipment stuck while doing damage to the environment. Your argument that there is no room for a parallel trail directly contradicts this statement. Which one is it?

You disregarded my comment about tie disposal because "there will be plenty of money from the scrap value of the rails". Well guess what? I did the math:

Assuming you get around $220 a ton for the scrap value of the rails; 105lb to the yard rail on the total corridor; 70 miles of rail removed: that works out to be $2,845,920 worth of scrap value. Sounds like a significant number, but that's not the end of the equation.

Most salvage companies take half of the scrap value for their services (thinking volunteers will be able to salvage the entire length of the railroad is absurd and you know it). That leaves $1,386,000. Still impressive? There's more.

You can no longer sell used RR ties in New York state for landscaping. Only a very small fraction can be resold for reuse in the railroad industry. This means that they will need to be disposed of at a certain cost. Assuming a $7.50 disposal cost (which I have been told is a low estimate based on the remoteness of the line) and a tie every two feet you end up with 184,000 ties and $1,386,600 for disposal.

Subtract that from the net scrap value and you end up with $36,960 for total trail build out.Hard to even build a parking lot in NYS for that amount. Oh, that's right. You are going to go after grants for maintenance so you might as well get some for trail construction too.

I think the thing that bothered me the most about our conversation is that you told me that, as a casual hiker, I am in the minority when it comes to trail use. I think this is a gross miscalculation on your part. People like you(and Russ too, sorry), that will hike any trail just to cross it off their list, are in fact the minority when it comes to the general public. People like me, slightly out of shape that work 40+ hours a week and do not have a lot of extra time on their hands (in other words 90% of the nation's middle class) are the people that are, and will be riding the train. For us, the train makes accessing the interior of the Adirondacks a possibility. With the train dropping us off at a remote point that is a shorter hike then from the highway to our scenic destination, MORE people will be using the existing trails (and waterways too). Some will simply ride the train as the entertainment. Instead you choose to focus on the able bodied few and ignore everybody else. When someone who, like you, will hike every trail they can find and has climbed nearly peak in the Adirondacks, stands next to me and tells you that he thinks the trail is a bad idea and will fail, you just tell them they are wrong.

You bragged about your ability to maintain the Jack Rabbit trail with volunteers over the years. So when the tracks are gone you will maintain both with the same work force? No. One will fall into disrepair (or both more likely). I bet your new best friend Jim McCully won't mind taking over the Jack Rabbit.

Your arrogance will ultimately be your undoing (and I'm speaking about all of ARTA). You are already walking around like you have won. If you weren't so full of yourselves, you would have actually read all the comments left on the boards at those meetings. The pro rail out weighed the pro trail, despite the attendance of the meeting. Oh and by the way, there were plenty of "the corridor should be opened up for ATVs and dirt bikes". You still haven't addressed that properly. When Russ offered to show you the damage they did to the Rutland trail your answer was "that's not a trail".

Your argument that the trail is better just doesn't hold water and DOT will see it. They will also see that many of the "trail supporters" are just frustrated with the lack of progress of train service restoration. They will change their tune when the tracks are fixed. Even the New York State Snowmobile Association says this.

If you are so set on building new trails and there are in fact no ulterior motives, then why not go to work on the former Chateaugay RR right of way north of Saranac Lake, or the Mohawk & Malone from Lake Clear to Malone. How about, and I have long thought this was a deserving cause, the Herkimer, Newport & Poland right of way. But then again, none of these have that option of getting NYS to fit the bill for maintenance after the trail is built, and none of these will further isolate the Adirondacks like ripping the rails out will.

Stop wasting our time with your propaganda.

Tony Goodwin wrote:First of all, no member of the ARTA board stands to gain financially from this conversion. Our goal is to turn this state-owned resource into something that will help the residents and the economy of the towns and villages along its route.

Not sure I need to say anything, Tony says it all himself.

One thing for certain if the trail people have their way, senior citizens (they pay taxes too), the handicapped and those who are not interested in snowmobiles, ATV's or other wheeled, rubber tired objects will no longer be able to even see this beautiful part of New York State. Rail trail people are NOT our friends and this goes to prove it.
Noel Weaver

Noel Weaver wrote:One thing for certain if the trail people have their way, senior citizens (they pay taxes too), the handicapped and those who are not interested in snowmobiles, ATV's or other wheeled, rubber tired objects will no longer be able to even see this beautiful part of New York State. Rail trail people are NOT our friends and this goes to prove it.
Noel Weaver

That's right, Noel.

After 5 spine surgeries, I can't walk any long distances because I'll get stiff and very sore and my son has special
needs, too. If the Tony and the ARTA people win, that'll wipe out our chances to see this special scenery.

To the others (except Tony and the other ARTA scum), pardon my words but they are selfish assholes.......

Charlie

Great post Traingeeek!

traingeek8223 wrote:IPeople like you(and Russ too, sorry), that will hike any trail just to cross it off their list, are in fact the minority when it comes to the general public.

No apology needed, Matt. That's part of my point -- when I ride all these rail-trails around New York State, *some* of them have many people using them. Most have almost nobody using them. One characteristic of a well-used trail: it's paved. With asphalt. At a cost of seven figures per mile, just like a road, y'know. Nobody is talking about paving the ARTA -- in fact they admit that it's going to be very rustic. Another characteristic: they're near population centers. The Dutchess County Trail, the Hudson Valley Trail, the Walkway Over the Hudson, they're in a big city (Poughkeepsie) which is a train ride away from a bigger city (NYC). Saranac isn't a population center. It's probably closer to Stamford, at the center of the Catskill Scenic Trail. Thinly populated, tourist destination, no trail users. At least none that *I* saw. Maybe Tony sees trail users in his fantasies. South County Trail starts in Westchester just north of the New York City border. Joins up with the North County Trail. Joins up with the Putnam County Trail. All of it paved. All of it heavily used. All of it "in the big city". I could go on and on with these examples.

I'm a freak. I ride rail trails. Almost nobody else in this world, this country, this state, are freaks. I'm okay with that. But neither should you build me a trail, and REALLY SHOULD NOT destroy a railroad just so I can ride on the railbed.

For years before the railroad existed, they had use of the ROW to themselves.

Somebody even got caught moving hazardous material in their personal hi-rail vehicle.

They're just mad and want their personal road back. And like most despicable folks, they'll tell any lie they have to to meet that goal. Even contradicting themselves in two lines of the same paragraph.

Noel Weaver wrote:One thing for certain if the trail people have their way, senior citizens (they pay taxes too), the handicapped and those who are not interested in snowmobiles, ATV's or other wheeled, rubber tired objects will no longer be able to even see this beautiful part of New York State. Rail trail people are NOT our friends and this goes to prove it.

You must have read my mind. I had the exact same thought yesterday, but had no time to post a response. For those of us who don't own an ATV or snowmobile, this is the only way we can get deep into the Adirondacks... far away from any roads.

Tony Goodwin wrote:First of all, no member of the ARTA board stands to gain financially from this conversion. Our goal is to turn this state-owned resource into something that will help the residents and the economy of the towns and villages along its route.

So... as a business owner... you stand nothing to gain from a trail? If that is the case, Tony, then you are not a good businessman because one of two choices must be true: 1. you want to create a trail that will be of no benefit to your business in the area or 2. you are being dishonest. Either way, you did not portray your intentions in a good light.

You also made a comment in a previous post about "good economic sense" being ARTA's rationale for removing the tracks. I take "common sense" quips in any forum with a pinch of salt, because (as Ben Franklin said) common sense isn't very common. There are already 1800+ miles of trails in the Adirondacks. Adding another trail will not improve your lot one bit.