Adirondack Scenic Railroad (ADIX) Discussion - 2013

I wrote an email in support of the railroad as I cant make any meetings. I hope enough others do the same.

I think we are assuming something when we think that Lake Placid won't (or can't) ever host the winter olympics again. Who knows what the future will bring? Transportation is part of the game when the decision makes decide where the games will take place and the railroad could be a player again if these games ever return. Please think positive on this one.
Noel Weaver

Does anyone have, a JPG or PDF map of the entire line with mileposts or maybe a link to one? They are arguing over the "119" mile line from Remsen to Lake Placid, but what about from Utica to Remsen? What is the total length of track from MP 0 in Utica to the EOT in Lake Placid (MP)? Why is the part of the line from Utica to Remsen not part of the controversy? What part's (Mileposts) are still active (tourist operation), and what exactly is the OSS part? (Mileposts please)

Thanks,
Hank

Utica to Remsen is the Mohawk Adirondack and Northern, at Remsen the line splits and is owned by NY State while the MHWA continues to freight customers in Boonville and Lyons Falls. Of the state owned portion from Remsen to Lake Placid, the current operating portion is Remsen through Big Moose, and Saranac Lake through Lake Placid, the "out of service" track in between is usable, but only sufficient for equipment moves between the two operating sections. A map is posted at the link below:

http://www.adirondackrr.com/map.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

It should be noted that according to ARTA's web page, it appears that now they are only talking about a trail from Lake Placid to Old Forge, not to Remsen. This however still accounts for taking up currently operating track.

While I'd love to see a Winter Olympics in Lake Placid again it has to be remembered that a great deal of the US Olympic training has even been moved out west away from the facilities in Lake Placid. There may be less investment needed in comparison to a summer games in NYC, the facilities are over 30 years old.

The rail service provided for the 1980 Lake Placid Olympics didn't turn out too well. Many view it as a fiasco.

In my opinion, the rail service option for possible future Olympics is not a great argument / selling point to keep the rails in place. ARTA will be all over that real quick.

I agree that future Olympic traffic is not a strong selling point for keeping the rails in place (it was HUGE in 1975 though), but it can be a small piece to the larger argument for transportation needs to the Saranac/Placid area. Anyone who has traveled through the Keene Valley or up Rt 30 during holiday weekends understands that driving to your destination becomes more of a chore than part of the fun (unless you love driving slow in long lines of traffic on winding roads). The Railroad offers a fun and relaxing alternative to this stressful (and sometime dangerous) method.

When you break it down to the simple facts, it's simply absurd to think that the corridor would be more useful as a trail. ARTA knows this but because they are working for the personal agendas of their Directors they ignore the facts and make people believe otherwise. They have mostly gained support through personal favors, misinformation on trail use, and taxpayer sympathy. Those same taxpayers however, will quickly turn on them when they realize that their trail plan has no funding plans for "Day Two" (post construction maintenance) and it will ultimately become another state tax burden.

I am very happy to see there is a email link to voice one's opinion. I encourage people to forward it to anyone wishing to show their support. And yes, PLEASE choose your words carefully and plan your argument out before you send. The last thing we want the DOT to think is that we are a bunch of Foamers that just want to play with trains.

[quote="traingeek8223"]I agree that future Olympic traffic is not a strong selling point for keeping the rails in place

I happen to believe that the Olympics will return to Lake Placid one day when the time is rite, when the desire to re capture that " miracle on ice" moment is needed as a marketing tool to inspire national pride in support of the winter games, and the politicians desire to possibly bring a life changing, sustainable economy to the region. That being said, the Olympics draw possibly 15 times or more people than they did in 1980, they have added more competitive events since 1980. There will have to be available resources such as airports, motels, restaurants, ect. from Syracuse to east of Utica, to be able accommodate spectators. Without an efficient, modern, am track capable rail service with min. track speed of 60 mph. to move people and supplies to the Lake Placid region then this opportunity will never be considered.

I would opine that if the Olympics were to return to Lake Placid and rail were involved, with or without ASRR, that lessons learned from the Olympic rail operation would be applied. There have been allegations of misdirection of funds and shady practices involving that operation, resulting in a railroad that was run on a shoestring over tracks that were just barely good enough to do the job (and some would argue that they weren't even that).

Keep in mind that according to first hand accounts I've heard, upwards of 100 people rode each Adirondack RR train, right up to the end, in August of 1980.

Even if a train ran a round trip only twice a week, that's still 200 people brought to the Tri-Lakes area each week - people who may very well stay for a few days, shop, eat, or otherwise spend money.

The trail advocates give rosy predictions of hikers and bikers using their proposed trail, but the examples they use of other trails are hardly comparable. One of their favorites has a state highway running parallel to it, allowing users to drive to a jumping off point and do an out-and-back, others are in major metropolitan areas.

Consider this regarding number of users: If 100 people a day in the Tri-Lakes area use a portion of a trail for their daily walk, to walk the dog, to ski for a bit, they will account for 36,500 uses! And not one additional drop of revenue for local businesses. Of course, that also translates to 50 hikers, bikers, and cross-country skiers using this trail each day to ring up the 20,000 annual visitors the advocates promise. Some folks cite that number at 250,000, which would require almost 700 trail users daily. While short sections might see some portion of that, the entire proposed trail (Old Forge - Lake Placid) doesn't see that number of snowmobilers on a busy day. To think that the trail will see that number of hikers is ludicrous.

As Traingeek points out, the Day 2 part is something the trail advocates have been noticably silent on. Maintenance is a problem on many trails nationwide, requiring a substantial investment. I would opine that they haven't discussed Day 2 because they aren't planning on a Day 2. They simply want the tracks up and everyone out of their forest.

Take the time to craft a well-thought-out comment and send it in by whatever means you chose.

!980 Summer ridership was mentioned and somewhere I have that breakdown from May to August. I was a brakeman on those traions and recall many being over 200 and many over 300 passengers for the morning train north out of Utica #3 and the morning southbound out of Placid was usually pretty heavy but not as much as #3 out of Utica due to so many stop overs at Old Forge (Thendara).

A big point that the trail only rail corridor studies and stats don't mention (and can't) is how much more beneficial and how much more impact they would have if they still had rail operations. For some, possibly like the MILW line over St. Paul Pass it might be surprising as might other lines that could be used for freight or industrial development. In Alaska there is a parallel trail with the AKRR in Anchorage for a ways. It can work with good planning and execution. Planning and executiuon allows for substantial benefits, and the Remsen-Lake Placid Travel Corridor has taken "the shaft" over 40 years of ownership by NYS and 18 years with a Final Management Plan that has never been fully implemented. Trail advocates tend to point out how great a corridor can be if the rail were removed, but seldom does one look at it as how powerful a corridor can be if it is already a strong trail, how much more it could potentially offer if it still had rail.

I think the potential for Utica - Lake Place would rival the success of the Grand Canyon Railway. A good destination, actually more than one destination, lots of beautiful mountain scenery, stops at areas which have no other transportation and a large area to draw riders from namely the entire northeast. Upstate New York is a great tourist destination, not just the Adirondacks and Catskills but Niagara Falls, Cooperstown, Watkins Glen and a good number of other good spots some of which are not all that far from Utica. There would be two types of riders on the trip from Utica to Lake Placid and return, travelers whom are on vacation and want to spend time in the mountains but do not want to drive there and one day round trip travelers for whom the train is the vacation and believe me one day outings are great, I have always enjoyed them. This line has as much or more potential for success as any other tourist type railroad and a much better chance than most of them. Please remember that rail trail advocates are NOT OUR FRIENDS, NOT FRIENDS OF THE RAILROAD and NOT INCLINED TO SUPPORT THE BEST ALTERNATIVE.
Noel Weaver

IMPORTANT INFORMATION concerning the UMP review for the Adirondack Rail Corridor!

A mailing just went out to 70,000 snowmobilers about the UMP review and hearings.

While the vast majority don't care about a hiking and biking trail, they are likely in full agreement that the track structure is a total PITA and they would love to see it gone. I totally "get" that, but...

Most are in denial that the trail may ultimately disappear - all they care about is getting the rails gone.

You can bet that they'll be out in force, even if they've never ridden the corridor, and never plan to.

I'm still looking over what they sent out to formulate a rebuttal.

If you've been waffling over whether to take the time and effort to send comments (addresses supplied above), stop. Sit down and start writing!


<----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------->
Dear New York Snowmobiler:

After ears of prodding, the NY Department of Transportation and the NY Department of Environmental Conservation have agreed to officially review and update the Remsen to Lake Placid Travel Corridor Unit Management Plan. Now is the time to speak up for greater snowmobile use on the corridor.

Grooming conditions will improve with rail out!

The 1995 UMP for the corridor had anticipated that the Adirondack Scenic Railroad would totally rehabilitate the railroad and provide service from Utica to Lake Placid. The railroad has never been able to fix the tracks between Big Moose and Saranac Lake. The cost of fixing those tracks so that they can support passenger service could be more than $40 million dollars; an amount that is extremely unlikely to come from public or private sources in the foreseeable future.

The Adirondack Rail Trail Advocates and NYSSA believe that the public can be better served by removal of the rails and the creation of a four season multi-use trail between Big Moose and Saranac Lake.

The NY Department of Transportation and the NY Department of Environmental Conservation have scheduled a series of public meetings to provide information and to accept comments from the public:
•Monday, September 9, 6-9 p.m. at the Town of Webb Park Avenue Office Building, 183 Park Avenue in Old Forge
•Tuesday, September 10, 1-4 p.m. at the DEC Region 5 Headquarters, 1115 State Route 86, in Ray Brook
•Monday, September 16, 1-4 p.m. at the State Office Building, 207 Genesee Street, In Utica
•Tuesday, September 17, 6-9 p.m.at the Wild Center, 45 Museum Drive, in Tupper Lake

Written comments also may be submitted

by Sept. 25 to [email protected], faxed to 518-457-3183, or mailed to
Raymond F. Hessinger, Director, Freight & Passenger Rail Bureau, NYS Department of Transportation,
50 Wolf Road, POD 54, Albany, NY 12232.



The complete state agency press release can be found at:
http://www.dec.ny.gov/press/93101.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;



What to say or write?
•The portion of Remsen-Lake Placid Travel Corridor that is not being actively used for rail service should be turned into a multi-use recreational trail.
•The rails should be removed and the corridor should be permanently open for snowmobiling in the winter; and hiking, bicycling, and other uses the rest of the time.
•What is certain is that active rail lines in the summer have made those portions of the corridor unfriendly, if not inaccessible, to the general public for recreational use other than paying to ride the train.
•It is very clear that although the line is inactive in the winter, the presence of the rails limits its usability as a snowmobile trail. Much of the time there is inadequate snow depth to completely cover the rails. This makes the trail difficult to maintain and ride.
•A recent study has shown that snowmobiling brings in hundreds of millions of tourism dollars a year to the region. Extending the time that this trail is usable would result in a clear economic benefit to all the communities along the corridor.
•Extensive wetlands and open water prevent the construction of a parallel trail to the rail for both economic and environmental reasons.
•The best use of this corridor is to remove the rails and turn it into a multi-use trail. This could be a world-class trail which attracts visitors from all over the world and will attract additional snowmobilers to the Tupper Lake area.
•In the winter, removal of the rail will greatly extend the snowmobiling season, and will significantly enhance tourism to all the communities along the line.


Some additional points worth mentioning:
•NYS DOT must remain as the agency that retains ownership and maintenance of the entire travel corridor and it's structures, just as they do today.
•The Travel Corridor must be its own unique Unit Management Plan and must continue to allow rail service where it currently is feasible with snowmobile use in the winter.
•The travel corridor should not be reclassified to the land uses of adjacent state property.
•Scrapping the rails will result in millions of dollars that will off-set the cost to convert the corridor (Big Moose to Saranac Lake) to a multi-use trail.

Thank you and feel free to call or write me if you have any questions. To read the NYSSA resolution in support of the Rail Trail click here!


Sincerely,

Dominic Jacangelo


Executive Director, NYSSA

PO Box 1040

Pine Bush, NY 12566

888-624-3849 x104

[email protected]

http://www.nysnowmobiler.com" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;


PS - the sponsors above and below help pay for this email tool.

The New York State Snowmobile Association (NYSSA), a non-profit corporation, is the largest snowmobile association in the country working on behalf of the 135,000 registered NY snowmobile owners, who contribute approximately $868 million to the New York economy, and 235 snowmobile clubs to improve trails, facilities and services for participants, and defend snowmobilers against discriminatory legislation.

I randomly check this thread to see what the latest is and admit up front I don't know all there is to know about ADIX. I had always assumed that there were no tracks laid North of Remsen and was covered with overgrowth. I thought the members were slowly making their way North clearing the overgrowth and laying track. So it was a suprise to me to read above that track does exist and is in use for equipment movement.

So if the skiers get their way, they will actually be legally allowed to sever an asset from an existing company? How can any politician get involved in disrupting a revenue generating company and strip them of an important asset?

Unfortunately, this happens all the time. Here in Lancaster, A group of 10 residence [weathly] that live along a flooded quary [their lake] next to the DL&W complained about the expansion and modernization of the Lancaster airport. The owners put a lot of money into the airport. The residence killed it! Last I heard the new owners are trying to sell it. The damage that just a few greedy people can cause is amazing.

As a follow up to a previous post on ADRC ridership in 1980, post Olympics here are some figures:

From May 16 - October 25, 1980 there were 15,692 passengers carried. This consisted of services as follows:

Weekends only May 16 - June 22 (Utica to Lake Placid)

Regular service from June 27 to shut down of through trains due to derailments on Aug 5th. (Utica to Lake Placid)

Weekends only Spetember 20 - October 25th (Tupper Lake to Lake Placid only)

Sample daily passenger counts are:

June 23 - 377 passengers
July 2 - 570
July 4 - 411
July 6 - 496
July 8 - 363
July 9 - 492
July 13th - 527
July 19 - 741

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CJ - Can I humbly request that you include those ridership numbers in a letter/email/fax to the address provided? Methinks they do a lot to prove the economic viability of the rail line through hard facts, not dreams and guestimates.

If you don't mind, I may use them in my written submission.