Catskill Mountain Railroad (CMRR) Discussion - 2012

Otto Vondrak wrote:

Paul W. Brasky wrote:"...Conrail took our switch out in 1996, so we'd have to campaign CSX hard to get it reinstalled."

Why did they do that?

Because the switch was of no benefit to Conrail. From what I understand, CMRR had an actual freight customer in Kingston in the 1980s. When that customer went away, there was little reason to keep the switch so Conrail removed it.

-otto-

If I recall correctly I remember there was a lumber company in kingston that got serviced. The siding to that business is gone, but the business is still there and so perhaps there is always hope! I've seen CSX in Northern NJ servicing customers who only get 1 box car on a limited basis, when they need it, and yet CSX is more than happy to have them on-line. So never say never. With all this rebuilding of the line going on, maybe someday that business might be willing to come back again. And I'm sure the county wouldn't mind facilitating some freight service. And so not just the CMRR but if the county also lobbied CSX to have switch put back in that might have an impact.

To me that switch is very important to the future of the line. Because having a live rail link is critical, especially one that is also connected to the national rail network as the CSX river line is. Granted this is just my opinion but I sure hope that switch gets put back in someday soon. You guys deserve it for all the work you do and for what you've been thru what with the many storms and all.

scoostraw wrote:Just because the railroad is a for-profit corporation doesn't mean they can't accept gifts. If someone like neroden stands up and says "Hey how much are ties anyway? I'd like to buy some for you guys." That's not a problem. The only "problem" is that neroden cannot deduct his donation from his income taxes.

Ahem. So, how much are ties these days anyway? (For that matter, how much is ballast?)

I have certain years in which charitable deductions do nothing at all for my income tax situation, and in those years I might donate something to the CMRR rather than another organization...

Friday, July 20th

On Friiday the 20th of July at Mt. Tremper the Engineer was Al Schoessow. Conductor was John Prestopino with Ed Winstanley the car attendant. Russ Hallock was Ticket agent. .


Saturday, July 21st

From Mark Glaser: "In Kingston today, the CMRR ran four near capacity trains as part of the railroads popular 'Lollipop' series. Close to eighty balloons were handed out to children as well as countless lollipops. Today's KPX crew included Earl Pardini-engineer, Mimi Pardini-car attendant/hospitality, Alex Sorenson-car attendant, Anthony Gambino- trainman, Mark Glaser was conductor." Rich Kerimoglu also flagged, and ticket agent was Pat Smalley.

In Mt. Tremper, Al Schoessow was engineer, Ray Farrell was conductor and Bill Kaba was trainman. George Bain was ticket agent. George Peck and I cleared brush from the ROW from Andrew's Lane to Rock Cut.

http://photos.greatrails.net/s/?p=202029

http://photos.greatrails.net/s/?p=202030

http://photos.greatrails.net/s/?p=202037

http://youtu.be/A4X2woup0kA

Later that evening, the Twilight limited ran with the following crew: Al Schoessow. Engineer, Ray Farrell, Conductor, Richard Kerimoglu, Brakeman, Tony Boccino, Gladys Gilbert, Mark Glaser, John Patane, car attendants, and George Bain, Ticket Agent. Additionally, Earl Pardini and Mimi Pardini played with the Slide Mountain Band and new volunteer Ed Markle helped with audio.


Sunday, July 22nd.

Sunday the 22nd at Mt. Tremper the engineer was Al Schoessow and Walt Otto the conductor. Tony Bocchino was car attendant and Pat Smalley the ticket agent.

In Kingston, from Mark Glaser: "On Sunday, crews returned to the railroad's Esopus Creek Bridge at MP 5 completing the positioning and installation of a pair of steel pedestals on the girder bridge section's middle pier. Up on the bridge deck, running rails on the north side were power spiked to the end of the through truss and on the south to about the midpoint. Today's C-9 crew consisted of Earl Pardini, Bob Blake, Will Wilsey,and myself. At Cornell St. Yard, Ernie Klopping continued work on the Kingston tamper."


Ernie Hunt
Volunteer Coordinator
CMRR

I know it requires a bridge instead of just a switch, but has CMRR ever considered tying in to what looks like a MOW spur just south of where its connecting track used to reach the CSX main?

A mainline switch, even if manual, will be in the $500k - $1M range, and not very tenable to CSX unless it generates 300-500 carloads per year. But even though it would be awkward to have a double switchback, if the CMRR could tie in to the existing spur that already has a mainline switch, you don't need a power lock or signal interlocks, you don't need a powered switch, and the derail can simply be manual with a lock IIRC. That brings the cost down into the $50-$100k range, or less if CMRR can contribute parts. How much would another bridge span cost over Broadway at Greenkill? Can it be combined with another city project to improve the Greenkill bridge? What about actually running rail over a "joint" bridge span (yes I know you can't use the current road bridge for this)?

With the geometry of a mainline switch apparently sticking in CSX's craw, the presence of an existing mainline switch, and CMRR's extremely low volume of movements over this track, I don't know if you can find a better solution. Face it, no matter how simple it looks for CSX to "just" restore the missing connection, it'll be far easier politically to connect to that existing switch south of Broadway. It becomes a community problem instead of a CSX problem, and I think the community would be easier for CMRR to work with than CSX has proven. Besides, even if CMRR landed a 500 car/year customer, I don't think the switchback arrangement would be a show stopper operationally--that is, as long as the existing off-mainline switch could be moved far enough south to make room for the CMRR connection between it and the mainline switch. That way, if CMRR picks up a customer, CSX would have one track to spot inbound and another track to pull outbound. It's actually an ideal arrangement save for the bridge construction.

Thoughts?

SlowFreight wrote:I know it requires a bridge instead of just a switch, but has CMRR ever considered tying in to what looks like a MOW spur just south of where its connecting track used to reach the CSX main?

A mainline switch, even if manual, will be in the $500k - $1M range, and not very tenable to CSX unless it generates 300-500 carloads per year. But even though it would be awkward to have a double switchback, if the CMRR could tie in to the existing spur that already has a mainline switch, you don't need a power lock or signal interlocks, you don't need a powered switch, and the derail can simply be manual with a lock IIRC. That brings the cost down into the $50-$100k range, or less if CMRR can contribute parts. How much would another bridge span cost over Broadway at Greenkill? Can it be combined with another city project to improve the Greenkill bridge? What about actually running rail over a "joint" bridge span (yes I know you can't use the current road bridge for this)?

With the geometry of a mainline switch apparently sticking in CSX's craw, the presence of an existing mainline switch, and CMRR's extremely low volume of movements over this track, I don't know if you can find a better solution. Face it, no matter how simple it looks for CSX to "just" restore the missing connection, it'll be far easier politically to connect to that existing switch south of Broadway. It becomes a community problem instead of a CSX problem, and I think the community would be easier for CMRR to work with than CSX has proven. Besides, even if CMRR landed a 500 car/year customer, I don't think the switchback arrangement would be a show stopper operationally--that is, as long as the existing off-mainline switch could be moved far enough south to make room for the CMRR connection between it and the mainline switch. That way, if CMRR picks up a customer, CSX would have one track to spot inbound and another track to pull outbound. It's actually an ideal arrangement save for the bridge construction.

Thoughts?

Wow I've heard plenty of pie-in-the-sky ideas, including street running on Broadway to get to the other side of the River Line, but this one is right up there. Don't get me wrong, this kind of thinking is a good exercise and you obviously put a lot of thought into it. But the cart is WAY before the horse here. If the CMRR was ready to roll unit trains of Big Indian Mountain Spring Water, it would still be a fight. But there are no customers. None.

The MOW spur you're referring to is the old Wallkill Valley mainline. It's ironic isn't it that that line was ripped up, but the mainline switch remains. Meanwhile the Mountain Branch was saved, but the mainline switch was removed.

Pie in the sky? On what basis?

Show me an alternative...any alternative...that has viability in a world where CSX has made it clear that it will not restore the mainline switch at its former location. You are going to have to go either north or south. How far north? How many grade crossings?

This thought exercise is not about the timing of a need for a connection. It's about viable ways to make one when timing and funding can converge.

I was looking for constructive criticisms of the technical feasibility, not the obvious reassertion that CMRR has no customer base.

SlowFreight wrote:Pie in the sky? On what basis?

Show me an alternative...any alternative...that has viability in a world where CSX has made it clear that it will not restore the mainline switch at its former location. You are going to have to go either north or south. How far north? How many grade crossings?

This thought exercise is not about the timing of a need for a connection. It's about viable ways to make one when timing and funding can converge.

I was looking for constructive criticisms of the technical feasibility, not the obvious reassertion that CMRR has no customer base.

Ok that's a fair question. First of all your premise assumes that a connection with CSX is necessary. While it is highly desirable, much of CMRR's rolling stock was trucked over the highway. That is much cheaper than a switch. Also, rails can be laid up and over the CSX main for a one-time-move if absolutely needed.

How about this idea. Convince CSX to remove the Wallkill Valley switch and install a switch instead for the CMRR?

SlowFreight:

The current idea for reconnecting to the main line is using a "lift frog", low maintenance switch with CSX:

http://www.progressrail.com/docs/lift-frog.pdf

http://ict.illinois.edu/railroad/CEE/pd ... -14-10.pdf

http://www.arema.org/files/library/2008 ... k_2008.pdf

These switches are very low maintenance, and are specially used for low volume siding connections.

This is much easier than a conventional switch at the prior location or trying to connect to Track No. 9 on Greenkill Avenue (former Wallkill Valley Line).

FYI, the switch location prior to 1976 was north of Smith Avenue and connected to a now-gone freight track that went up to North Yard, rather than connected directly to the main. The switch reinistalled in 1986 and removed in 1995 was connected directly onto the main south of Smith Street.

Scoostraw/Ken:

Although there are no customers along the CMRR in Kingston now, CSX does not market to off-track customers in Kingston and rarely uses its only team track in Kingston, which is the lead to the former Wallkill Valley. It is hard to believe that there are no customers in Kingston who might take advantage of transload service if it were marketed. Also, the County of Ulster itself is a potential customer for many items that they haul in now by truck. Once we finish rebuilding the railroad from Hurricane Irene and get across C9, we may get more active marketing our services. But first things first.

EH

Saturday, July 28th

On Saturday George Peck plans to do bolt work between the new switch at MP 24.75 and Route 28. George will start at 9am at Mt. Tremper.

In Kingston, Cornell Street will open at 10:30am. Anyone available to do brushwork near Dutch Village, please stop by Cornell Street at 10:30am.


Sunday, July 29th

George Peck will continue bolt work. He will start at Mt. Tremper at 9am.

In Kingston, Earl Pardini plans to start at 9:30am at Cornell Street. Plans are to continue to install the new pedestals for the girder bridges on C9 and continue trackwork. Some brushwork is needed near Dutch Village, so please bring loppers and brush cutters for work there.


Ernie Hunt
Volunteer Coordinator
CMRR

That's interesting Ernie. I was not aware of such a frog. Good idea. It definitely would reduce maintenance cost, however the other costs including signalling, time lock etc. remain. Still gonna be a tough nut to crack.

eehiv wrote:Once we finish rebuilding the railroad from Hurricane Irene and get across C9, we may get more active marketing our services. But first things first.

Right. Just a few details to clear up first.

Everyone has great ideas, and it's wonderful to see enthusiasm and interest in the railroad... But the sad reality is that Hurricane Irene has drastically reduced our operable track. Prior to the hurricane, we were regularly operating from Phoenicia to Cold Brook. The railroad would like to be able to repair and restore that section and return to regular operation of that section. In the mean time, volunteer crews are working very hard in Kingston to make repairs to Bridge C9 so that it can once again be open to rail traffic. Aside from our regular volunteer work crews, we also have volunteer train crews working in both Mount Tremper and Kingston... There's a lot of work to be done, and only a few folks available to do it. We are always seeking new volunteers to come out and help with all aspects of the railroad. Every hour of time contributed helps!

http://catskillmtrailroad.com/volunteer.php

-otto-

Well this is good news, that there is hope that the CMRR connection to the CSX river line will perhaps one day be restored!

scoostraw wrote:

SlowFreight wrote:Pie in the sky? On what basis?

Show me an alternative...any alternative...that has viability in a world where CSX has made it clear that it will not restore the mainline switch at its former location. You are going to have to go either north or south. How far north? How many grade crossings?

This thought exercise is not about the timing of a need for a connection. It's about viable ways to make one when timing and funding can converge.

I was looking for constructive criticisms of the technical feasibility, not the obvious reassertion that CMRR has no customer base.

Ok that's a fair question. First of all your premise assumes that a connection with CSX is necessary. While it is highly desirable, much of CMRR's rolling stock was trucked over the highway. That is much cheaper than a switch. Also, rails can be laid up and over the CSX main for a one-time-move if absolutely needed.

How about this idea. Convince CSX to remove the Wallkill Valley switch and install a switch instead for the CMRR?

Moving the Wallkill Valley switch may be the best idea yet if it's close enough to the CMRR lead to minimize wiring. A one-for-one swap might be gotten past the folks in Jacksonville. Obviously, as long as CMRR keeps buying friction bearing rolling stock in the short term, it won't matter that you have to truck cars because it can't move on its own wheels without an FRA waiver. But with a switch real freight business enters the realm of possible.

In line with all this, I have a question: I can't seem to believe that a simple manual hand thrown switch could cve hunost $500,000+ Perhaps someone could explain that. I do understand that parts and materials, probably are expensive, but five hundred g's for a hand thrown switch?

airman00 wrote:In line with all this, I have a question: I can't seem to believe that a simple manual hand thrown switch could cve hunost $500,000+ Perhaps someone could explain that. I do understand that parts and materials, probably are expensive, but five hundred g's for a hand thrown switch?

That's just it. It wouldn't be a simple hand thrown switch. There are others with more knowledge than I, but I'll take a stab at it. The main issue is that it is a mainline switch. There are 2 CSX tracks thru Kingston at this point. If the CMRR were on the "other side of the tracks", then it would be connecting to the controlled siding instead.

With a mainline switch it's nothing like installing the switch at Mt. Pleasant. Think of it this way - imagine there's a CSX freight heading up the line at track speed. He's maybe a mile away. He's already past the lineside signal showing the line clear. If someone were to then walk up to the CMRR switch and open it... well you can see this wouldn't end well.

Therefore one of the things required is a "timed lock". So that when this person walks up and opens the switch, a timer starts. Nothing actually moves until the timer ends (15 minutes?). At which time the dispatcher is notified of the request to throw the switch etc. Plus it has to be tied into all the signals up and down the line. It's more complicated than that, but in any case it has to be designed so that there is no chance of a conflict. Also the switch must be built and regularly maintained to mainline track standards. On a curve (I think?). It is a pricey thing.