West Shore Mohawk & Syracuse Division Timetables

Hi- I'm looking for timetables for the West Shore's Mohawk & Syracuse Divisions. I've found dozens of the WS's River Division, but not one for the M & S Divisions. I know that passenger service on the WS in Central and Western NY ceased around 1934, so it would have to be prior to 1935. Can anyone point me in the right direction, or know if there Is an archive posted online of old NYC timetables for viewing/download? I was thinking that the Shore may have been listed in the same timetable for NYC's mainline service?? Any help would be much appreciated-81

Hey 81,

Check out this site, as it has a ton of information that could probably keep you going for hours!

http://www.kinglyheirs.com/NewYorkState ... ppHoOL3O-M" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Charlie

NYCUticaSyracuse81 wrote:Hi- I'm looking for timetables for the West Shore's Mohawk & Syracuse Divisions. I've found dozens of the WS's River Division, but not one for the M & S Divisions. I know that passenger service on the WS in Central and Western NY ceased around 1934, so it would have to be prior to 1935. Can anyone point me in the right direction, or know if there Is an archive posted online of old NYC timetables for viewing/download? I was thinking that the Shore may have been listed in the same timetable for NYC's mainline service?? Any help would be much appreciated-81

I have some passenger timetables from that era, which years are you looking for?

-otto-

Have you looked on this site? http://www.canadasouthern.com/" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Thanks for the links Charlie and Joe S! Looks like a lot of great maps and timetables to go through.

Otto-I'm looking anything prior to 1934 of the Mohawk & Syracuse Divisions (Albany to Buffalo). I've been searching the net and ebay for sometime now, but have only seen timetables for the River Division of the Shore.

Thanks, 81

NYCUticaSyracuse81 wrote:Thanks for the links Charlie and Joe S! Looks like a lot of great maps and timetables to go through.

Otto-I'm looking anything prior to 1934 of the Mohawk & Syracuse Divisions (Albany to Buffalo). I've been searching the net and ebay for sometime now, but have only seen timetables for the River Division of the Shore.

Thanks, 81

Don't you dare bid against me on ebay!

I have 1935, 1935, 1937, 1938, 1940, 1941 for the Mohawk Division timetables. Shortly after 1941 I believe they started issuing the Form 100 all-inclusive New York-Buffalo timetable.

I also have 1922, 1924, 1931, 1937, 1938, 1939, 1940, 1941 timetables for the Syracuse and Rochester Divisions. Around 1937 they also include the Pennsylvania Division. Again, shortly after 1941 consolidated into the big Form 100.

I'll try to scan a sample tonight.

-otto-

Here is the earliest standalone Mohawk Division timetable I have, from 1934.
-otto-

Thanks for posting these Otto and for the heads up on the timetable listed online. I know that passenger service on the Shore in western and central NY had ceased by 1934, but perhaps the W.S. schedule was listed in some of the earlier NYC mainline timetables. If you come across anything that has the listings for the W.S. between Buffalo & Albany, please let me know. After a couple years of searching with no luck, I've grown curious as to which timetables actually carried the Mohawk & Syracuse Divisions of the West Shore.

Thanks again, 81

I think I have it - a full schedule of the West Shore RR in 1910. From the 1910 Official Guide to the Railways (a book of all major timetables in the US). Here is the link - but it takes forever to download. http://cprr.org/Museum/Books/I_ACCEPT_t ... e_1910.pdf" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
Look at what is labelled page 221-225 of the Official Guide (around page 330 of the pdf file). page 223 of the Official Guide has the WS timetable from Albany to Buffalo. 224-225 is the usual Albany -Weehawken which I think you have found other places.
Hope this is what you are looking for. JS

And here is 1921 - but haven't looked at it yet . In the beginning there is a table of contents of RR's - you can find the N.Y.C.there.
http://cprr.org/Museum/Official_Rail_Guide_1921.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Wow! Great find!! Thanks a bunch Pumpers!

Easy way to view and download:

-Open link with Firefox in a new tab
-Right click on File in upper left hand corner
-Click Save As and close tab
-After downloading open with Adobe (161MB 1,486 pages)

NYCU-S, you are welcome, the miracle of the internet!- and of forums where you can find people who can help.
Regarding the official guides, I have found only a few years where the whole thing is on-line to view free. The CPRR site has a few other years too in the late 1800's I think. I am not sure how the official guide worked in practice - I imagine RR's had to pay to get in there, (sort of like the old Yellow Pages phone book) so they decided how many of their schedules they wanted to put in. The NYC put in almost everything , it seems - some other big RR's just put mostly the main line long-distance schedules in there. You can spend hours looking at them and seeing how they changed over the years... Have fun, JS
You probably found it by now, but in the 1921 Guide the WS main line is on O.G. page 167.
EDIT: I remember when my whole computer had 100 MByte of memory - not that long ago it seems - and I wondered what the heck I would do with it all.

Some trivia:
In 1910 it appears that Utica to Syracuse (at least as far as Fairport just east of Syracuse) was running on the West Shore (on the West Shore timetable), but by 1921 that segment seems to have been via the NYC mainline, not the West Shore.
In both 1910 and 1921 the West Shore trains used the NYC stations in Utica, Syracuse, and Rochester. From looking at old maps, there are logical places get off and on the West Shore to/from the NYC on either side of Syracuse and Rochester, but not Utica. Heading westbound, it is not clear how you get back on the West Shore after stopping at Union Station (on NYC rails) in Utica, unless you took the New York Ontario & Western for a for a few miles through the west side of Utica. Anyone know if this is how they actually did it?
JS

pumpers wrote:Some trivia:
In 1910 it appears that Utica to Syracuse (at least as far as Fairport just east of Syracuse) was running on the West Shore (on the West Shore timetable), but by 1921 that segment seems to have been via the NYC mainline, not the West Shore.
In both 1910 and 1921 the West Shore trains used the NYC stations in Utica, Syracuse, and Rochester. From looking at old maps, there are logical places get off and on the West Shore to/from the NYC on either side of Syracuse and Rochester, but not Utica. Heading westbound, it is not clear how you get back on the West Shore after stopping at Union Station (on NYC rails) in Utica, unless you took the New York Ontario & Western for a for a few miles through the west side of Utica. Anyone know if this is how they actually did it?
JS

I noticed this too. If you look at the 1909 timetable, you will notice that the only active WS stations between Syracuse and Utica were at Oneida Castle and Canastota. Likely because Oneida Castle also served the NY O & W main, and the NYC main and L.V. RR's were at Canastota. Between 1907 and 1930, the WS shared the ROW with the Oneida Railway Interurban which opertaed trolleys between Utica and Syracuse over the WS. Perhaps by 1921, the NYC mainline was used to avoid congestion with the O.R.R. Co and WS freight service between Utica and Syracuse?? I also wonder if the stations between Utica and Syracuse (Vernon, Hecla, Oneida Castle, Clark Mill's etc.) were used by the WS during the 3 year gap betweeen the end of the Oneida Railway Co. operations in 1930 and the end of WS passenger service in 1933.

I'm not sure how trains operated from Union station west either, but I know for a fact that they did it on a number of occasions. I recall reading an article a while back, written by veteran author John Taibi about the numerous railroads that once operated in the city of Oneida, NY. I specifically recall reading that after a 1951 wreck on the mainline at Oneida, all passanger traffic was re-routed south of downtown on the WS (I don't know if mainline freight did so or not). Eastbound trains could pick up the WS at Canastota, but I could never figure out how or where the westbound trains would have connected to the shore traveling west from Union Station??

I think you might be right Pumpers. After looking at openstreetmap, it appears that the connection to the WS from Union station was probably via the O&W Utica branch. The connection looks like it was at or near the Chenango Rd. Crossing.http://www.openstreetmap.org/#map=16/43.0867/-75.2862" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

NYCUticaSyracuse81 wrote:I think you might be right Pumpers. After looking at openstreetmap, it appears that the connection to the WS from Union station was probably via the O&W Utica branch. The connection looks like it was at or near the Chenango Rd. Crossing.http://www.openstreetmap.org/#map=16/43.0867/-75.2862" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Yes, I agree. I would love to find an old map or picture that showed an actual connection there, and not just a diamond where they crossed. By the way in the Open Street Map, it labels the other line in the area as the NY Susquehanna and Western. I always thought it was the Delaware Lackawanna and Western. Note the O.S.M. does show some current/past connections where the WS crossed the DLW (or NYSW). JS