Wawa Extension

SCB2525 wrote:And from what I hear, the 104 is terribly(sp?) unreliable. I would guess rail ridership would be much better.

Any and all buses on WC Pike are unreliable at rush hour. The most stupidly bleedingly obvious problem with buses, and the hardest thing to get across to anti-rail types, is that in the absence of enforced bus-only lanes, they cannot go any faster than the surrounding traffic (duhhh) and so will be slower overall than cars because they stop more frequently (double duhh).

Interestingly enough, there is anecdotal evidence from places like San Francisco and New Orleans that even though streetcar lines also have to compete with cars, they still attract more riders than do buses.

I don't know what it is about the 104. I have only taken it once in the last several years so I can't comment first-hand. The stories about the route's problems in Creighton's journal are mind-boggling.

Yes, you spelled "terribly" correctly. I often wish these boards had some kind of spell-check facility, not only to catch my own fumblefingered typing but also [rant_warning] to do something about the legions of references to "busses", "alot", "seperate" and other solecisms that make my ex-teacher's eyes hurt. [/rant_warning]

The odd thing about West Chester Pike is that when they widened it, they removed the trolley tracks, but built a median wide enough for a pair of tracks (if they remove the left-turn lanes). Unfortunately, the area from Broomall to West Chester is low-density sparwl and there's not much hope for ridership on any such theoretical line.

The R3 extension to West Chester seems more sensible. The ROW is still intact, and all that needs to be done is new track and electrification (I can't imagine the state of the line after decades of neglect). The line is about 15 miles, so I would estimate the captial cost to be about $75 million for the track and catenary.

The operating costs might be a sticking point for SEPTA, but if the county were willing to pay the incremental costs for service, that should solve the problem

The West Chester trolley was one of the few traction lines that was abandoned because it had too much traffic. When the Pa Highway Dept. widened WC pike circa 1954, Red Arrow considered keeping the trolley, but it was found that the line really needed to be double tracked, at least as far as Newtown Square, and the Red Arrow didn't feel that it had the money do do this. Additionally, even with the then five year old St. Louis Cars, Red Arrow couldn't schedule enough trolleys to handle the peak period traffic on all four trolley lines without using the two-man center door cars ( everything else by that time was one-man) Thus the 19.5 single track portion between Westgate Hills and West Chester was abandoned, with the double track line between 69th Street and Westgate Hills retaining rail service during peak periods only. Westgate Hills was abandoned in 1958.
The WC Pike service has always ( in bus days) had congestion problems, particularly east of Newtown Square. Of course now the entire run is slow.

Even back in the 1960's, the bus, as slow as it was, always carried the bulk of the West Chester- Phila. traffic, and I found that many of my fellow students at "the College" who were not from the Phila area didn't even know that the train existed---- even though from the campus, you could hear the MP-54s sound their whistles as they crossed Nield Street.

SEPTA approved the 2005 capital budget on June 24, 2004. Here is the section about the Wawa extension from it:

This project will provide for the restoration of rail service from the existing R3 Media/Elwyn Regional Rail Line terminus at Elwyn, Delaware County, to a proposed terminus at Wawa, Delaware County. The growth and development of suburban communities in western Delaware County and southern Chester County have resulted in substantial increases in population, employment and traffic in the past ten years. This project, which will extend service approximately three miles, represents an opportunity for SEPTA to capture the Center City commuter market in the expanding suburban locations while increasing the overall mobility of residents in the project area.

Service restoration will require new track and catenary between Elwyn and Wawa, along with new signals, communications and structures, as well as the construction of a new station and parking facility at Wawa, Delaware County. The project is in close proximity to US Route 1, a major highway artery serving this area. Route 1 would provide excellent highway access to the large park and ride facility proposed at Wawa.

A Request for Proposals for preliminary and final engineering services was advertised in July 2004. The Notice to Proceed for engineering/design is anticipated in the 4th quarter of Calendar Year 2004.

It gives figures for funding:
Prior Funding: $2,130,000
FY 2005: $0
FY 2006-2008: $3,000,000
FY 2009-2016: $46,197,000

It looks like actual construction isn't scheduled until 2009, since 3 million is only enough for preliminary sitework.

anotherwords they're going to spend alot of money studying and designing it, but when time comes to build it, it won't happen.

Its beyond me why it takes 5 years to rehab an existing ELECTRIFIED ROW!!!!!!!!!!!

I agree that SEPTA's excessive amount of planning is out of control. They already know that the project is viable, so final design and engineering should take no more than a year, and construction should take no more than three. It should be done by 2008. Take a look at how fast the NJT River Line was constructed: design and engineering started in 1999, contruction in 2000, and it opened this year.

jfrey40535 wrote:In other words {anotherwords} they're going to spend a lot {alot} of money studying and designing it, but when time comes to build it, it won't happen.

Its beyond me why it takes 5 years to rehab an existing ELECTRIFIED ROW!!!!!!!!!!!

That is standard SEPTA practice. Look at the SVM, Quakertown, 100 extension, BSS extensions and on and on. By creating a lot of smoke but no real fire, it looks as if they're doing something. The pols are kept happy, the riders and businesses can be tantalized by the eventual possibility of future service at some time later time but SEPTA DOESN'T ACTUALLY HAVE TO BUILD OR RUN ANYTHING!

I'm all for doing proper planning, after all, it's easier to fix a mistake on paper than in concrete and steel. But I have a sinking feeling that all this money is going to engineers sitting around doing nothing all day.

About all these studies, shouldn't the reports generated by these studies be made public and available for download on a web site somewhere? They're spending public funds, but I never see any results. At least give us what you've got. Anyone have any links?

/*I agree that SEPTA's excessive amount of planning is out of control.*/

Try the NY MTA some day. They're fixated on building an MU storage yard on the Port Jefferson line somewhere around Greenlawn despite:

* The desperate need for electrification to Port Jefferson
* Said yard will cost MORE than electrifying the line
* The community doesn't want the yard, the want an all electric line
* There's an unused yard at the end of the line that's suitable for what the MTA wants.
* The much flaunted dual modes are already slated to be phased out - the MTA intends on dropping DM capacility from 1/2 the fleet next year.
* A yard in Greenlawn makes zero sense in the context of a fully electric PJ line.

Yet, they're STILL planning (12 million worth!) for the yard. Oh yes, they're also designing the NEXT generation of LIRR MUs, even though the M-7 order is barely underway and the M-3s are supposed to be rebuilt, plus numerous other 'planning' studies for stuff that's either not happening or makes no point.

Don't forget the MBTA's 600 million dollar bus line...

Septa may be dysfunctional (though the times I've been in Philly, I just found it dirty and bizzare more than anything else), but they don't have the monopoly on stupidity.

Lucius Kwok wrote:About all these studies, shouldn't the reports generated by these studies be made public and available for download on a web site somewhere? They're spending public funds, but I never see any results. At least give us what you've got. Anyone have any links?

The SVM major investment study was online after it was completed, but is now gone since the official svmetro.com site went dark and SEPTA redid its web site.

I did find the executive summary at the SVM Coalition site (project cheerleaders from the Greater Valley Forge TMA). Said site hasn't been updated since 2002 though, and a lot of things have happened(*) since then. Link here: http://www.svmcoalition.com/news.html

*--The main thing being the FTA's rejection of the project, documented in the New Starts report available on http://www.fta.dot.gov.

Thanks for the links. I know that the Wawa extension is really a service restoration rather than a new start, so I guess it's not subject to the same Major Investment Study / EIS requirements as projects like SVM and CCM. I have some opinions about the SVM report but I'll save them for later.

Anyone interested in the what's currently on the West Chester branch between Wawa and West Chester should look at the West Chester Railroad, a tourist railroad operation. From the photo section, you might be able to see the catenary still in place. http://www.westchesterrr.net/

And the Octoraro Railroad is currently used by the freight operation Morristown & Erie Railway Inc. http://www.merail.com/octoraro_railroad.htm

The problem with this extension is similar to the problem with most rail projects today, light or commuter or whatever, versus other expansion projects back in the 1970's and 1980'. For the $50 million, trains could roll to West Chester if they thought and planned creatively and efficiently.

These planners are trained (ha ha) to GOLD PLATE the hell out of everything now:

-Park-and-Rides of colossal scale (let's build a phat slab of concrete and asphalt chock full of contracts, like it was the center of universe or something) with a diamond interchange off of route 1, landscape it, storm water stuff and other civil engineering delusions of grandeur.

-Public Art (How about a huge hoagie made of glass and steal at Wawa station?? I bet you it is in the plans.)

-ADA pork (let's not just do the min. but even more, we'll install several millions worth of parking spots and ramps for a few trips a month. Buy low-floor cars and lower the platforms at some of the Center City stations...problem solved...the current pattern and discussions relating to this subject is hackneyed and counter-intuitive at best).

-More bells and whistles (reward contracts to friends) for other things that have no real benefits.

Alternatives:

>>Build the extension as a basic service similar to the way it was in 1986 and restore existing facilities as compliant and concurrent with short-term demands and minimum regulations.

>>Have a phase II where you build a park-and-ride at Route 202 AND Route 1 as ridership demands. Add on those finishing touches then.

>>Get money from Chester County by building trust and they will come to the table (phase II).

Any questions??

1. Park and Ride: How many spaces will there be at the new station? How many are there at the existing station?

2. ADA: Will they be installing the mini-high platforms here? This seem to be the most cost-effective solution.

3. Chester County: Aren't they favoring extending the R5 to Coatesville instead of extending the R3 to West Chester? I think their planning commission said as much. http://dsf.chesco.org/planning/lib/plan ... 04news.pdf

4. US-202 doesn't go anywhere near Wawa, does it? On a related note, the part of the US 202 highway project in Delaware county is in the EIS/PE stage. http://www.us202.com/Pages/news_and_upd ... ection=100

Lucius Kwok wrote:2. ADA: Will they be installing the mini-high platforms here? This seem to be the most cost-effective solution.

It would be best if they built full high-level platforms.

I'm wondering about full length high-level platforms. How about considering building them out the wood-like recycled plastic material available today? This stuff is made from old tyres and plastic, and shaped into boards the same size as 2x6 planks. I think it would save money over pre-cast concrete or cast-in-place concrete. Plus it would be environmentally friendly, which is a big political plus in suburban Delaware County (Wawa is in Delaware County).

I did some research and, to answer my own question, it looks like there will be at least 500 spaces, or about 4.6 acres of parking. For a new development on flat land, the parking alone will cost $1 million, but here the station is located over a creek and there maybe drainage issues. In fact, the entire site is located in the bottom of a steep valley and it'll be interesting to see how they figure out how to build a major station here. There are hills that rise over 150 feet within 1000 feet of the rails.