UP Trains Collide in Goodwell, OK

TULSA, Okla. — Two freight trains were not speeding when they collided in a fiery head-on crash that killed three people in the Oklahoma Panhandle, according to a preliminary federal report released Monday.

With all due respect to the Washington Post ... not violating MAS does not mean that one of those trains was not speeding. 38 mph is a good speed for a train that was likely operating after passing an Approach Diverging signal and was to take the siding at ESS Goodwell. 64 mph is a good speed for a train staying under the 70 mph MAS, but not a good speed for a train that should have stopped on the main before passing ESS Goodwell.

Railroads are not like highways where DOT puts up a permanent 65 mph speed limit sign and says boys have at it. Not violating MAS is an acceptable statement, but not violating the speed limit indicated for that train? The speed limit on railroads is controlled by signal indication. And by all indications, someone missed an indication.

Have there been any public comments from the surviving crew member who jumped before the impact? Also, what kind of crews are on the helper engines? Any comments from them? What kinds of rules are in place for lead engine crews and helper crews for relaying signal information to eachother?

SlackControl wrote:Have there been any public comments from the surviving crew member who jumped before the impact? Also, what kind of crews are on the helper engines? Any comments from them? What kinds of rules are in place for lead engine crews and helper crews for relaying signal information to eachother?

The "helper" units were unmanned locomotives in Distributed Power mode, controlled from the leading locomotives.

Slackcontrol I don't want to come across as being mean here, but do u really think someone who just saw three people die and he knew and worked with one of them would make a public statement right now? The investigation is still ongoing by the ntsb. To make it more clear what the surviving crew member is going through he has the funerals to attend(dont know if that's happened yet), has the ntsb asking him questions. And just to point out on more thing, did this person know something was wrong way before this happened and that's why he jumped, and why did nobody else jump from either train? That's what the ntsb has to figure out.

The crew member who jumped might still be in the hospital or some type of long term care/rehab facilty.
He/she may have been questioned by the NTSB already if the doctors allowed it and told by the NTSB and/or UP
NOT to make any public comments.
This person will live with this "nightmare" for the rest of his/her life and hopefully gets the care needed to recover from
this .

Backshop I completely had forgotten to mention in my above post that they could be in the hospital and having to live with this the rest of their life. Thanks for adding that to what I had already said.

Messrs. Backshop and MBTA, in addition to the nightmares you both have addressed, there is still another - and that is the FELA nightmare.

As anyone around here who does or has done this stuff for a living knows, be they Operating or Non-Op, Agreement or otherwise, this Conductor at present is "on his own" for his medical payments; his health insurance does not cover on the job injuries. The only way he will recover is to bring a lawsuit against the UP; there is no underlying principle of indemnification with FELA such as there is with Worker's Compensation.

He is also off the payroll - even if for some reason the carrier has not held him from service.

Unfortunately, health care providers choose to be ignorant of this little fact of life; they will proceed with collection against the employee - and at list prices. All too often, needed medical care will be withheld simply because the employee/patient is unable to "front" the costs. As anyone who has been a litigant in this life, especially if a plaintiff, knows, these matters are "not exactly" settled overnight. Think three years and be pleasantly surprised if less.

Not that I was ever injured during my railroad career (and for which I thank "someone topside" for that being the case); I am speaking first hand; For someone I once loved (a female; better throw that in nowadays) went through it and deceased all too young.

Gilbert B Norman wrote:Messrs. Backshop and MBTA, in addition to the nightmares you both have addressed, there is still another - and that is the FELA nightmare.
As anyone around here who does or has done this stuff for a living knows, this Conductor at present is "on his own" for his medical payments; his health insurance does not cover on the job injuries. The only way he will recover is to bring a lawsuit against the UP; there is no underlying principle of indemnification with FELA such as there is with Worker's Compensation.
He is also off the payroll - even if for some reason the carrier has not held him from service.

I guess that's a Union Pacific custom, or the conductor bought the wrong policy on his own. My employer, Tyburn Railroad, bought health insurance for the employees from Blue Cross and Aetna that did also cover on the job injuries. There were clauses in the policy that it was secondary to any Workers' Compensation policy that might apply, and there was a right of subrogation so the insurance company might sue another party, including the employer, if they thought someone else was at fault. If they won, we had Railroad Liability Insurance, including Federal Employee Liability Act coverage to help with the loss. We were pursued by something like the "Railroad Insurance Trust" which sold or brokered health insurance without that subrogation clause. The salesmen claimed the some other health insurance companies would "double dip", that is, raise our rates even if they recovered their loss!
Some railroads and Brotherhoods do provide sick pay even for accidents, partly in hope that an employee who doesn't have to worry about debts is less likely to be a hostile witness at a trial. Some defense attorneys worry that an injured employee with money is better able to afford a more expensive attorney, and is less likely to settle a claim quickly.
Thank you for laying out the facts in this particular case. Unfortunately, I have done this stuff for a living in the East, where I have less knowledge of local Union Pacific policies and customs than you do.

Gilbert why would the conductor be off the payroll? That has gotten me confused, wouldnt they be on paid leave since it was an on the job injury, or does the UP policy say different?

Mbta fan wrote:Gilbert why would the conductor be off the payroll? That has gotten me confused, wouldnt they be on paid leave since it was an on the job injury, or does the UP policy say different?

If I recall correctly, railroad employees are on their own. Most of us carried something called "Run-off" insurance that paid certain amounts for injury, disability or disciplinary run-off. Other than that, the employee had to seek relief thru a FELA-qualified attorney. Once you ever did that, you were persona non grata, let me tell you! If you ever once sued the company and won, if the settlement included a severance (and many of them did), you became "THE ENEMY"! Don't dare show your face on the property again, or you would be escorted out by the railroad bulls. I saw it happen. Even when someone won a settlement over an injury that was caused by the company, and THEY were in violation of rules, they still considered the employee (the victim) to be a deadly enemy! Even dedicated employees who worked diligently, then got hurt, a wreck not their doing, or a machine in the shops exploded, they were now treated like sh**!!!!

The railroad claim agents would spy on employees, follow them around, and talk to the employees on the phone like they were dirt. But one agent got into REAL trouble like that! He posed as an insurance agent and came to the out-of-service employee's door pretending to sell insurance. The employee had noticed the black car that stayed parked nearby for 3 days, and suspected something was up. The employee pretended to be interested in "insurance" and told the agent to come back a couple days, keeping the fake "insurance application". He then called the local police and the State Department of Insurance. When the railroad claim agent returned, the cops were waiting along with the State Insurance agents! He was charged with selling insurance without a LICENSE!!!!!!!!!!!!! Revenge is sweet!

GF

Messrs Boylan and MBTA, while on one hand I don't make this stuff up, on the other I have been away from the industry for over thirty years. If there is now health insurance sold or provided to railroad employees that will cover an on-the -job injury and then that insurer will subrogate against the employer road for whatever it can recover under FELA, then the industry has come a long way in the right direction.

If FELA now provides for some matter of indemnification as does Worker's Comp in any state I know of, such as paying health care providers, that too is a welcome step in the right direction.

But all I know is that "back in my day" FELA was some kind of circus where "physicians" would "treat" patients in such a way as to embellish a civil suit resulting in greater damages than otherwise needed be.

If my FELA narrative no longer represents contemporary conditions, then I am most pleased to learn, and to me this is discussion time well spent. I sincerely believe my friend, (not a girlfriend; she was married - but still a wonderful and supportive "workplace friend") would still be here today and would have been wrapping up her railroad career and ready to enjoy a well deserved retirement instead of......

Mr. Norman, nothing about the Federal Employees' Liability Act has changed from the dark days you remember. And, from other comments, I suspect that many large railroad's attitudes haven't changed, either.
When I worked for McHugh Bros. Line New Hope & Ivyland RR, I remember the "on retainer" detective agency being pushed to "dig up the dirt" on an injured employee, in case he had to sue.
I only say that proper health and accident insurance exists, like the "run off" available through the Brotherhoods, if someone is willing to pay the premium and wade through the fine print.

That's interesting info about them being treated as the enemy even if they won a law suit. Good info by both of u.

Mr. Boylan, as Mr. MBTA immediately notes, it is indeed interesting to learn that at least on some properties, employees can now purchase supplemental coverage to insure medical expenses arising from on-the-job injuries.

Again for ready reference, railroad employee health insurance plans do not cover on-the-job injuries and an employee must accordingly reach a private settlement with his employing road under Federal Employer's Liability Act - and to reach an acceptable settlement, it is often necessary for that employee (Agreement or otherwise; makes no difference) to initiate a civil lawsuit against his employer, as FELA does not provide for simply indemnification, i.e. the carrier is required by law to pay a health care provider (directly or through an insurer) for medical care of an on-the -job injury.

I note that Amtrak now offers this kind of coverage to its employees (Adobe P 14):

http://www.amtrak.com/ccurl/588/430/Amtrak-Ink-0712.pdf

Is there any chance that railroads will simply come under various Workers Compensation Acts? Not likely as too many attorneys (some are down there with ambulance chasers) are having too much a field day with FELA. Just go to any rail labor union's page, and the popups from FELA attorneys will overwhelm you.

Gilbert B Norman wrote:Mr. Boylan, as Mr. MBTA immediately notes, it is indeed interesting to learn that at least on some properties, employees can now purchase supplemental coverage to insure medical expenses arising from on-the-job injuries.

Again for ready reference, railroad employee health insurance plans do not cover on-the-job injuries and an employee must accordingly reach a private settlement with his employing road under Federal Employer's Liability Act - and to reach an acceptable settlement, it is often necessary for that employee (Agreement or otherwise; makes no difference) to initiate a civil lawsuit against his employer, as FELA does not provide for simply indemnification, i.e. the carrier is required by law to pay a health care provider (directly or through an insurer) for medical care of an on-the -job injury.

I note that Amtrak now offers this kind of coverage to its employees (Adobe P 14):

http://www.amtrak.com/ccurl/588/430/Amtrak-Ink-0712.pdf

Is there any chance that railroads will simply come under various Workers Compensation Acts? Not likely as too many attorneys (some are down there with ambulance chasers) are having too much a field day with FELA. Just go to any rail labor union's page, and the popups from FELA attorneys will overwhelm you.

It's still true, and the FELA lawyers LOVE it: they fill their coffers with "gold" everyday over this. They don't want it changed. But the employees, from what I remember, are on their own. I never was injured on the railroad. Lucky me.

GF