Tucson, AZ on-board shooting

[STrRedWolf]

http://www.tucsonsentinel.com/local/rep ... an_taylor/

Medical examiner has ID’d the dead suspect. DEA agent killed in action also named. Second suspect has been charged with possession.

Also heard from Virtual Railfan that passengers were bused to their destinations.

[Ridgefielder]

The truth about drugs and weapons on trains is. I'll site two cases, first a gentleman that rode a couple of times a month with nothing more than a backpack and a wonderful hand carved walking stick. Nice guy always sat and talked with the crew. The regulars stopped seeing him and later found out he was one of the bigger drug dealers in the area the backpack was used to carry his supplies up and money back and that walking stick? Hidden inside was a nice sharp 2 foot long pig sticker. Who knew.

Second, train across the boarder during the inspection a mirror in a bathroom was found dislodged and upon further investigation a couple of large bags of Coke was found and it wasn't the type you drink. That train sat for HOURS the owner was not the train.

Just a few examples from the way back machine. I'm sure there were others but these two seem to stick out the most.

Just my two cents-- I've spent my entire life in the New York area. I've been riding trains around here (subway, commuter, Amtrak) for as long as I can remember. I *guarantee* you that multiple times in the past 46 years I've been in the same car with, or even in the seat next to, someone with some sort of illicit substance and/or firearm. That is just a fact. Criminals are going to travel the same ways everyone else travels. There would be no way to prevent this without taking actions that would be invasive, objectionable to the general public, manpower-intensive and Constitutionally-suspect (e.g. "Stop & Frisk")

With regard to this incident in Tucson: judging from the story, this was not a random bust. This was a coordinated effort to arrest two suspects. The agents boarded the Sunset specifically looking for these two men. This could just have easily happened at a Pilot-Flying J on I-10 or something.

[eolesen]

I agree. Those demands to restrict where, how or when laws are enforced are just about as political as it gets... might as well say Defund ICE or the DEA... They should be removed.

Amtrak trains are essentially Federal property thanks to that 2015 court ruling affirming Amtrak as a government entity.

Not sure how anyone could expect Federal property to be declared an enforcement free zone, or how specific Federal agencies could be banned from doing their jobs on Federal property.



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[John_Perkowski]

Apparently some people are indeed uncomfortable with some of the causal factors, e.g. drug trafficking…

I am indeed uncomfortable that Amtrak is being used by organized crime. I am glad DEA dealt with the issue, but I think we need to seriously discuss law enforcement and Amtrak passengers.

[Railjunkie]

I agree, drop it. The police didn't have to question the passenger on the train. Why didn't they wait until after they disembarked? This wasn't about immigration (could've just gotten the drugs through another way) or an insecure rail system (they actually use effective tools unlike the security theater at the airport), but rather misplaced priorities of policing a never-ending war with no victories with little regard for civilians because it lines their pockets.

I am very disappointed the moderators have chosen to leave the very political posts on this thread. They have not made the same decision on others, citing "it's railroad.net not 'insert whatever here'.net" If they reverse that and choose to delete some or all of this post with it, so be it.

So the agents should have waited until the suspects de trained thus making for the possibility of more casualties? Perhaps you would have preferred a high speed chase down I-10 were a lot more innocent people could have been hurt. The agents are highly trained in what they do and knew the risks of taking these two down on the train versus on the platform. I have a better idea, how about instead of pulling your weapon on a Federal agent you just obey his commands and let the judge and jury pass judgement. There would still be two families who haven't had to go through the pain of losing a loved one.

I agree this isnt about immigration it is about the use of Amtrak as a way to transport drugs. I can recall at the boarder crossing from Niagara Falls Canada into Niagara Falls US they would bring on the dog and let them work the train. Going through some old stuff while cleaning found a business card from a DEA agent out of Burlington VT. Rutland was an "open" town way back, he must of known something. Probably ties into the gentleman with the carved walking stick. Im sure there is more and hopefully something like this never happens again.

[Marcop23]

[...]
Amtrak owns part of the responsibility for letting the weed and the gun onboard. Without those two actions, there wouldn't have been a shooting.

Without a gun, there wouldn't be a shooting indeed. But I don't think Amtrak is responsible for that. You can't put a TSA circus on every single train station, every subway station, and even every bus stop. If you don't want guns as a society, you should restrict gun access on a national level.

[STrRedWolf]

I've held back here because... well, the problem is much larger, and a very much political.

First of all, the problem that *caused* this shooting is global. Trace the money -- it's going back to outside the US and to countries where the enforcement of law is lax due to various reasons... namely, because of how expensive it is to actually live. To solve this will require major nation (re)building, something that nobody apparently has the money, stomach, or patience for.

Second, passive solutions (like the border wall) do not work. People will tunnel, climb, or otherwise reroute around obstacles. So you have a lot to monitor... but not only do you have a lot of land to cover, but a lot of beach to cover, and many many airports (not to imagine any private air fields). That takes manpower, which of course takes money... and are only partially effective (see above).

And third, a lot of the bans do not have major science backing them up. The "war on drugs" is primarily a political one, with only a handful of drugs that truly have zero use and are fully harmful. A full reanalysis of said drugs is needed. You may find some interesting things that make no sense why they're in their current legal state.

So what you get is essentially a "cold war" when the problem requires a "hot war", and a lot of feet shot off.

What happened in Tucson is outside Amtrak's control. To fully put a stop to it requires a lot more than what our current political creatures in office are willing or capable to do.

[ryanov]

Guess time will tell whether this new amnesty for political posts only applies to posts decrying open borders or whether all Amtrak adjacent political options are in play. I guess it only makes sense, as Amtrak itself is governed by politics.

[STrRedWolf]

From Virtual Railfan's Youtube Community page:

We honor the courage and sacrifice of Michael Garbo, and mourn his tragic loss. We're proud that we were able to assist Tucson Police, Amtrak Police and the FBI with evidence to bring closure to this horrific event. Our hearts ache for the Garbo family, and for everyone affected by this senseless act of violence. If you can, please join us in donating to the memorial fund to benefit his family:

https://www.gofundme.com/f/mike-garbo-memorial-fund

Agent Garbo was the DEA agent killed in this incident.

[Jeff Smith]

I've been on a bit of a "sabbatical", so forgive me.

Our politics policy is, to be blunt, "in the eye of the beholder". I wish I could make a hard and fast rule as it was years ago before I became admin. That policy was "zero tolerance" for political discussion. I wanted to allow politics to a certain extent AS IT PERTAINS TO RAIL.

It's a fine line. I understand Eolesen's points, Andrew's points, Daybeers, and Ryanov's.

To be clear, it is not a one-sided policy. Whether it's arguments against "Open Borders", or "Paths to Citizenship", to funding for infrastructure, to Orange man bad, to Trump won, matters not. As far as the board goes I am apolitical.

My policy is politics on the board MUST pertain to rail. In my judgment, Eolesen's original post did pertain to why this is happening ON AMTRAK.

Also, even if it related to rail, it can't be full of hyperbole', as noted above. Perhaps it was a tad hyperbolic, perhaps not. Hyperbole' doesn't mean a strong opinion. A blanket statement that "So and so is incompetent and going to ruin the country" is political, whether true or not.

I also have issue with the back and forth on whether it constitutes a violation or not. That distracts from the conversation. If you feel someone has crossed beyond the "neutral zone" of rail discussion into a political statement, report the post (as I noticed it was), or PM me or the mods. Don't respond, as then it turns into a political argument.

I value feedback. As my first point notes, it's a gray area, and we're not perfect.

In order to move the discussion forward, I did delete some posts for that reason only.

Thanks for the opportunity to address this issue.

Jeff

Guess time will tell whether this new amnesty for political posts only applies to posts decrying open borders or whether all Amtrak adjacent political options are in play. I guess it only makes sense, as Amtrak itself is governed by politics.

[John_Perkowski]

Jeff

[STrRedWolf]

A bit of closure on this one as I was reminded of it in another thread: The remaining person involved in the shooting has pleaded guilty of drug and firearms charges.

https://www.justice.gov/usao-az/pr/co-c ... ads-guilty

TUCSON, Ariz. – Devonte Okeith Mathis, 24, of Mesquite, Texas, pleaded guilty yesterday to Conspiracy to Possess with Intent to Distribute Marijuana, and Using and Carrying a Firearm During and In Relation to a Drug Trafficking Crime and Possession of a Firearm in Furtherance of a Drug Trafficking Crime. Sentencing is scheduled for May 24, 2023, before United States District Judge Rosemary Márquez.

On October 4, 2021, Mathis and his co-conspirator were traveling together aboard an Amtrak train in Tucson, Arizona, when his co-conspirator shot and killed Drug Enforcement Administration (DEA) Special Agent Michael Garbo aboard the train. His co-conspirator also shot and injured a second DEA Special Agent and a DEA Task Force Officer. The co-conspirator died on the scene. Mathis admitted, in pleading guilty, that he knew that his co-conspirator possessed two handguns. He also admitted that it was reasonably foreseeable that his co-conspirator would possess the firearms in furtherance of their drug trafficking conspiracy, and that he would carry and use the two handguns during and in relation to their drug trafficking conspiracy.

...

A conviction for Conspiracy to Possess with Intent to Distribute Marijuana carries a maximum penalty of a term of imprisonment of up to five years, a fine of up to $250,000, or both. A conviction for Using and Carrying a Firearm During and In Relation to a Drug Trafficking Crime and Possession of a Firearm in Furtherance of a Drug Trafficking Crime carries a mandatory minimum term of imprisonment of five years, to run consecutive to all other counts, a fine of up to $250,000, or both.

Well, that's done and dusted. Guess we can get the consist to the repair shop now and have them take out all the bullet holes.