Trolleys in University City

A large number of people work in University City, and need transportation from the EL or from University City Station. I think many people would like to see trolleys taking people to and from work at the Universities and Hospitals in West Philly rather than LUCY buses. So, I think it is more than just the attitude of merchants that need to be taken into consideration if a trolley loop will someday circulate in University City.

I agree that a Rail Shuttle would be nice from a railfan point of view through University City, however as a resident of the area, I feel that the Subway Surface lines already do a decent job of connecting the area....in addition Trollies are quite large and do tie up lanes of traffic in an already congested area.....the small LUCY shuttle style buses move with traffic better, and are able to move out of the way of traffic when boarding and unloading...

Trollies are very nice, but I do not think a regular trolley loop is the answer for University City..

LUCY (Loop throu University CitY) is one of the first things that the UCD did when it was created. They sat at 30th street station and watched the Penn shuttle bus follow the Drexel bus and the PCPS bus and figured there had to be a better way. They worked with the universities and the science center to consolodate their separate shuttles into one that anyone in their organizations could ride for free and contracted SEPTA to operate it.

The LUCY is all well and good, but it addresses a different transportation problem than the proposed trolley loop. It has a somewhat exclusive nature (geared towards the needs of the major institutions in the area rather than the residents) and it only operates during the day weekdays as its main goal is to move workers from 30th street station to various employment centers in the neighborhood.

The university city trolley loop is designed to encourage neighbors to spend their dollars in the neighborhood rather than other parts of the city. Parking is already at a premium in some areas and increased traffic flow would be detrimental to the atmosphere of the neighborhood. Trolleys are proposed to address this percieved transportation need.

To find out if it is a real need or not, groups like the UCD perform studies before they throw thier weight behind them.

I'd encourage people to read what the University City Trolley Loop is all about.

http://www.uchs.net/Streetcars/trolleyloop.html. Be aware that this is several years old at this point but the underlying observations remain true.

That's an excellent idea. I would have loved it when I was in my apartment at 45th and Pine st. To have the 13, 34 and a historic trolley in easy walking distance would have been too good to be true. Of course SEPTA probably should set up a permanent route on the diversion route, it'd expidite moves to and from Elmwood Depot, as well as provide a much needed north-south link west of the Schuykill but east of the 52 and 64 buses. Running from either 73rd and Elmwood or 49th and Woodland up to 63rd and Malvern, it could use either depot's cars for the service (assming the Callowhill issue is cleared up), and it'd really just be nice to see SEPTA service on the diversion route.

Of course of the UCHS or the UCD can get this Historic trolley idea off the ground then that'd possibly be the best thing for the neighborhood since Penn started subsidizing the housing around their campus. As they note, most of the track is already there, just add some small segments to tie other sections together. It'd be nice to see 38th St get an upgrade, perhaps a dedicated median for the trolleys (eliminate a parking lane and it's easily done), along with signal prioritization for the trolleys.

As for the operation, would it be possibly for UCD/UCHS to get the trolleys and contract SEPTA out to build the track extensions, then maintain and operate UCD's historic trolleys? In addition would it be a good idea fo Friends of the Philadelphia trolleys to get involved and perhaps assume an air of legitimacy in terms of a business and take the operation and maitenance of the historic fleets off SEPTA's hands?

I know I'm getting ahead of us here, but Gomaco offers 1920s vintage Milan PeterWitt trolleys that are extremely similar to PTC's old trolleys of the same design. Getting one of those with a pair of BMEC wide-gauge trucks and a coat of green and creme paint would be exactly what the historic trolley would need. It'd be even better to see either UCD buy or lease SEPTA's PCCs and the single original Peter Witt, 8534 for service on the loop. Five Milan Cars from Gomaco, along with three PCCs (assuming we have 6 PCCs in the historic fleet now, and SEPTA gives UCD half) and the single PTC Peter Witt making occasional appearances would really create a unique service. Even among the quickly growing ranks of historic trolley and LRV operations following San Fransisco's example, it'd be quite unique to have 3 generations of railcar on one track. Something not found outside San Fran, and as such it'd be a fitting tribute to all of the Philadelphia region's history with trolleys to have such a system.

I do have a few misgivings; ideally it'd be best to see everyone get along happily, but all too often SEPTA seems to covet those assets they deem neccesary, and I fear this could happen in this case. If UCD tried to push for a historic trolley, SEPTA would fear their territory being treaded on, and would either attempt to kill the Subway-Surface under a "I can't have it to myself, then you won't have it either" line of reasoning (and I use the term lightly), or try to force UCD off their tracks, no matter how much they were willing to pay SEPTA for them. Either way this is a project that facinates me[/url]

Wdobner wrote:Of course of the UCHS or the UCD can get this Historic trolley idea off the ground then that'd possibly be the best thing for the neighborhood since Penn started subsidizing the housing around their campus.

That is a subject in and of itself and you would be wise to "feel out" the company you are in before you say it around here (here refering to west philly). There is a fairly large group of people in the neighborhood who are more than a little bit wary about PENNs intentions and remind us all of the promises that have been made and broken by the university to the neighborhood over the years. Not everybody here agrees that the universitys new found interest in the neighborhood is benign.

Wdobner wrote:(eliminate a parking lane and it's easily done)

not so easily done. People love their parking and it will be hard to convince the food vendors up and down 38th street that giving up thier space that they park their food truck in is good for the public when it forces them out of a location that they have been in for years. Not an insurmountable problem, mind you, but not so easily done.

Wdobner wrote:It'd be even better to see either UCD buy or lease SEPTA's PCCs and the single original Peter Witt, 8534 for service on the loop.

As I understand it, the Peter Witt trolley is not owned by SEPTA and is therefore probably not for sale/lease/use by a potential UC Loop. In any case, whatever trolleys serve this loop, they must be fully ADA compliant and have modern conveniences that people expect (by which I mean Air Conditioning) if they are to generate any serious ridership. The remaining PCCs are beat to hell and just about used up. They are not fit for service in their present condition and the nouveau riche in my neighborhood are not interested in their transportaion needs being provided by a rolling relic, no matter what their interest in a historic district may suggest. This may be part of why the UCD decided to wait until PCC IIs were available to run this "demonstrator".

Wdobner wrote: Five Milan Cars from Gomaco, along with three PCCs (assuming we have 6 PCCs in the historic fleet now, and SEPTA gives UCD half) and the single PTC Peter Witt making occasional appearances would really create a unique service.

It would not be attractive, however, from a management standpoint as those dis-similar vehicles would all have their own maintanance needs and would all have separate stockpiles of spare parts to keep them in service. Workers would have to be trained in the operation and service of three very small, unique fleets of vehicles in addition to the K cars that currently serve West Philadelphia.

My real hope is that if this loop were to be started, SEPTA would exercise their option for the 8 additional PCC rebuilds a la route 15 to supply this service with vehicles. That assumes, of course, that there are 8 additional vehicles anywhere on the property suitable for rebuild.

Wdobner wrote:If UCD tried to push for a historic trolley, SEPTA would fear their territory being treaded on, and would either attempt to kill the Subway-Surface...or try to force UCD off their tracks, no matter how much they were willing to pay SEPTA for them.

I'm not so sure. SEPTA is always interested in new revenue streams and I'm not convinced that they would shoot this down out of hand. If it were presented in the right way, SEPTA might very well agree to create new trolley service. The right way, in this case, is for the UCD in its role of advocate for the local merchants requested the service and identified a source of funding to pay for, or at least offset the cost of, the operation. How much do trolley rebuilds cost? And this would require six or eight? Plus the new track, switches, junctions, overhead and a layover loop all cost money before the first trolley rolls.

I was told by the author of this proposal that they got a lot of people interested in it some time around 1999 and brought it to SEPTA who said something to the effect of "we could run another LUCY bus for you". The trick is not to show how useful the line is; to get this thing running, you have to convince people outside of SEPTA to invest dollars to procure rolling stock and perhaps even subsidize the operation. When that happens, then the loop stands a some sort of chance of being created.

In the meantime, come out and visit our neighborhood tomorrow. Visit the UCD website and download their tourist maps. See the sights. Spend some dollars. And write UCD later on telling them how you come to our neighborhood and enjoyed yourself one fine saturday afternoon because of the trolleys.