The Flying Yankee

3rdrail wrote:In essence, I happen to agree with you, particularly if a stationary rebuild would be considered a "win".

Not unlike the Pioneer Zephyr that is permanently entombed seven stories below the Museum of Science and Industry in Chicago. A great cosmetic restoration, but it will literally never see the light of day again. But she has been preserved for future generations to enjoy in some capacity. Perhaps a similar fate awaits the Flying Yankee if the mechanical restoration is put "on hold?" I'd hate to see the FY buried someplace that is inaccessible to most of the public, though.

Unfortunately, that's the cost of forgetting due to a "somebody will save it" mentality. So, just to possibly keep the Yankee from being a future topic on "Dateline", let's continue to problem solve and think if there might be a resolution-even if we can't come to an immediate one.

Out of sight, out of mind. I'd like to find a way to raise more awareness, too. Perhaps a museum or some other group would volunteer a dedicated home for the completed Flying Yankee, which would help spur activity on some sort of completion. A letter of intent that promises track space and some sort of minimum budget for maintenance would go a long way to giving the FY restoration a goal (Unless there's already a permanent home base already under consideration that I'm not aware of?). Here's a question, if an investor showed up tomorrow with a suitcase full of cash, who would he work with to see that money applied to restoration? Directly to the contractor? Funneled through the NHDOT? Administrated by the FY group?

-otto-

Otto Vondrak wrote:Here's a question, if an investor showed up tomorrow with a suitcase full of cash, who would he work with to see that money applied to restoration? Directly to the contractor? Funneled through the NHDOT? Administrated by the FY group?

I think that illustrates part of the problem. There are a lot of cooks in this kitchen, and it's not entirely clear which one is the head chef.

Otto Vondrak wrote:

3rdrail wrote:I'm "sharpening my axe", Otto ? Really ??!

Otto Vondrak wrote:Yes, really, if I'm reading your posts correctly. I apologize if that is not the case.

Otto- I was inclined to just write "forgetabowtit" for this post, but once again, I feel that this needs explanation. I will speak only for myself when I say that moderation of red hot posts may not have been your ideal gig. Aside from that, 1) I think that you were a superb site administrator, I like you as a friend, I like you as a person, I think that you have a super body of knowledge- particularly about the Central and it's area, and I like the way that you interface with our hobby- something which I don't do as much of and am lacking. I have no "axe to grind" against you. I accept your apology.

3rdrail wrote:As far as the deleted posts are concerned, during the period we are speaking about you were the Site Administrator.

Otto Vondrak wrote:If I deleted anyone's posts years ago, it was probably because I felt it didn't contribute anything to the conversation (Examples: hyperbole, emotional outbursts, oblique satirical references, etc.). I haven't been the site admin for many years. I apologize if I offended you in anyway, I have no personal grudge against you or anyone else. What does any of this have to do with the current state of the Flying Yankee?

Otto- I'll just say that I believe that good sometimes comes from an unexpected direction. In fact, my posts which you deleted were of an "oblique satirical reference" which I sometimes use....the point is that they drove a message home in a medium which presents itself as mainly black marks on a light blue background. I'm sure as a graphic artist that you appreciate many such oblique satirical references. (I have a great one in poster form- "Nixon Speaks !") So, I hope that you have seen how this dialog connects. In the meantime, we've got some terrific knowledge on this thread (I've double checked my spelling !). Let's proceed and see what comes up. You never know, Otto, that one oblique satirical reference might be strong enough to stick in someone's mind that read this thread who has the power to change things. It's not about you, it's not about me, it's all about us as gentlemen buffs trying to protect a beautiful lady in distress ! (oblique satirical reference)

Maybe someone can put the touch on Warren Buffett ( BNSF )............

Seems the Conway scenic could be a good home for it in a shed or something as a static display and perhaps more down the road. Would the "head chef" be willing to donate it to them?

Just a thought here, perhaps best suited for any lawyers on-board. What about attempting in making it a national historical landmark ? Who can make such an application ? That would be beneficial on at least four levels that I can think of;
1) It would protect the Yankee. No swapping engines or parts auctioning anymore. There may even be a provision for the recovery of sold parts.
2) It would give it status, perhaps giving it a position at South Station or The Smithsonian.
3) It would trump any attempt for New Hampshire to retain and not completely refurbish it.
4) It might be a way to get it out of the clutches of the Flying Yankee Restoration Group which may have ties with New Hampshire state politics.
THINK OF ALL THE LOST CHOCOLATE TRILOGIES !!! OH, THE HUMANITY !!!

3rdrail wrote:Just a thought here, perhaps best suited for any lawyers on-board. What about attempting in making it a national historical landmark ? Who can make such an application ? That would be beneficial on at least four levels that I can think of;
1) It would protect the Yankee. No swapping engines or parts auctioning anymore. There may even be a provision for the recovery of sold parts.
2) It would give it status, perhaps giving it a position at South Station or The Smithsonian.
3) It would trump any attempt for New Hampshire to retain and not completely refurbish it.
4) It might be a way to get it out of the clutches of the Flying Yankee Restoration Group which may have ties with New Hampshire state politics.
THINK OF ALL THE LOST CHOCOLATE TRILOGIES !!! OH, THE HUMANITY !!!

Here's a link to a summary of the requirements: http://www.nps.gov/nr/publications/bull ... rb15_9.htm

This past August I attended the 5 day long World Science Fiction Convention which was held in Chicago last year. Stayed a couple extra days to see the Illinois Railway Museum and the Pioneer Zephyr, etc. at the Chicago Museum of Science and Industry. I was most impressed by the Zephyr exhibit's use of a motor and cam to shake the train and make a noise as if it were passing at slow speed over jointed rail as one walked through and the animated figures in the observation section that spoke as video of passing scenery played in each of the observation windows. It was as close as one could get to an actual ride experience in a fixed exhibit.

I recall first seeing the Flying Yankee at Edaville in the late 1960's and short of a full operating restoration, the Zephyr type of exhibit in Boston would be ideal.

Thanks, Ken- much appreciated ! Some interesting stuff there. I thought that the Register and Landmarks were the same entity, but were surprised to see that they are different with their own qualifications. At first read, I didn't see anything regarding "vehicles" there which surprised me as I know that the S F Cable Cars hold this distinction (maybe it's the entire system ?). Anybody have a clue as whether or not a non owner could petition for landmark or registry status ? (Man, as a Catholic, they sure slapped our face. If the Pope proclaimed that Jesus performed a miracle at Niagra Falls, it couldn't be landmarked but could be if the Falls represented a trail for explorers !)

NRGeep wrote:Seems the Conway scenic could be a good home for it in a shed or something as a static display and perhaps more down the road. Would the "head chef" be willing to donate it to them?

Just a reminder that Conway Scenic is not a museum. That's not to say you couldn't rent some track space from them for storage, but their yard in North Conway is not exactly "secure" without any fences to keep away the curious while it's in storage.

That said, it could be stored anywhere potentially that you could rent track space and keep it secure or possibly even cocoon it until restoration is ready to proceed again.

-otto-

Otto Vondrak wrote:

NRGeep wrote:Seems the Conway scenic could be a good home for it in a shed or something as a static display and perhaps more down the road. Would the "head chef" be willing to donate it to them?

Just a reminder that Conway Scenic is not a museum. That's not to say you couldn't rent some track space from them for storage, but their yard in North Conway is not exactly "secure" without any fences to keep away the curious while it's in storage.

That said, it could be stored anywhere potentially that you could rent track space and keep it secure or possibly even cocoon it until restoration is ready to proceed again.

-otto-

Good point Otto. Just thought it could be a good fit given that the FY did run on the mountain division, though I may be wrong?

I believe that it did as "The Mountaineer".

And then we're back to square 1 again......

1.)Where do you store it?
2.)How do you facilitate "at the very least" putting it back together.....oh wait a minute, you can't. Parts have been auctioned off......
3.)Do you start a brand new group for recognition of the trainset or do you just try to work with the Frying Yankmee Groap to get something done?

It's that this point that we need to look at something else. The people on the FYG have had plenty of time to explain themselves, and have been asked time and time again to give an explaination of what has been done. They are constantly refusing to do this. It's not like the entire railroad comunity doesn't know whats going on, so trying to continue to stonewall the people who are supposed to be your fund raising base is probobly not such a good idea. I would be willing to consider anything that they had to say.....if they would ever take some responsibility for the state of the trainset and say something.......

4.)IF you move it from where it is right now, how do you find the move. She's not on rail, and there is no possibililty of shipping it by rail unless the trucksets are all done, tested and mounted along with the brake systems in it....and not to mention modification of A car for a coupler.
5.)Why move it to the CSRX? It's a warm and fuzzy idea, but it really does nothing for the trainset. Are you really going to be able to care for the trainset any better there than at Lincoln?
6.)How are you going to be able to exert ANY control over the trainset, without getting some sort of lease from the state. You know as well as I do that you will never be able to wrestle the trainset away from the Yankmee Groap in a manner that will allow a new (and by virtue of not selling off all of the artifacts from the set ) more credible conglomeration to take control.
7.)The state of New Hampshire owns the set.....so until someone gets the state on board, nothing will be done.
8.)See #7
9.)See #7
10.)See #7


Talk about where the Yankee will go, and how she will be "fluffed and Stuffed" would be much better off being talked about once people figure out how to get some sort of control over it. That is the first and foremost. Until someon has a signed agreement from the state of New Hampshire, all the vast majority of this is conversation is nothing but foam. The only cheap part of picking up the pieces of the Yankee will be all this talk.......

I think that that's a little too "giving up" at this point, Steamer.

1) Smithsonian.
2) The FBI could probably recover all of it under emenent domain. Most likely, purchasers had to register for the gala auctions.
3) Absolutely not. The groap should be history. Given assurance of money to keep the Yankee going, it would be easy to set up a new group. One of the engine rebuilders comes to mind. As far as receiving a "second", they would do it with the express acknoledgement that it was as such, and a pre-takeover commitee would document precisely it's condition at it's current state.
4) Flatcars then truck.
5) No.
6) I'm out of my league here, but I'd be amazed if the federal government doesn't have an eminent domain law in it's favor. Federal law trumps state law.
7) see above.
Last paragraph) I disagree. I see "landmarking/registering" as a real solution out of this hole. I'm hoping that by "talking this up"
here, we might catch the attention of someone who is familiar with this process, perhaps who has done it before, is a Yankee buff, and who might grab the ball and run with it. Remember that new viewers see our posts for the first time every day. It may not happen today, tomorrow, or even next year...but in the general span of Yankee quagmire, as long as the topic stays alive and an eye is on it, does it really make that much of a difference to the Yankee ?

3rdrail wrote:I think that that's a little too "giving up" at this point, Steamer.

There's a big difference between giving up, and accepting the reality of the thing....which is something I did back in 2004. Saw the writing on the wall back then....but no one wanted to listen, and I'm not going to say "I told you so". Don't think that is necessary.


1.) Smithsonian- How are you going to convince the state to donate it to the Smithsonain? The citisens of New Hampshire are going to want to see a return on their investment....they're not going to just give it away. And if by some stroke of luck, it did go to the smithsonian....How you going to pay to get it there, and once it's there, who is going to pay to put it back together?

2.)The FBI can not recover property that was legally sold. Even if they were able to somehow claim emenent domain....the federal government is not going to go after legally traded property because a couple of foamers are mad that they let their train get parted out. It's not like the property was "stolen" to beginwith or something. And who knows where it all is by now....and who knows if the Groap ever kept a list. They can't keep track of their money, and you think they're going to keep track of their train parts that they don't want.......

3.)And without a new group, money to start it, and the validity that would have to come with an agreement from the State of New Hampshire, how do you propose to get this new group any sort of credibility? Yet again we come down to credibility and money.

4.)Where you going to get the money, and how are you going to do that with no ability to do anything with the trainset? Can't do anything without the backing of the state....can't get the backing of the state without a group that has the liquid capitol and political connections to get rid of the current groap

5.)we seem to agree

6.)There is no emenent domain law for trains (that I know of). And even if there was, there is no case law to back up your argument. You would loose in court so fast it would make your head spin. The legally apointed custodians of the trainset have done nothing to incite a reposetion of the property by the federal government, and the federal government has go bigger things to worry about than the Flying Yankee. They can't even get an American engine running at Steamtown and you think that they are going to care about the Yankee? If they (the federal government) did get the set....I doubt it would go to the Smithsonian. It would most likely go to Steamtown to never ever ever be put back together.

No one will go after the Yankee without some sort of credibility. No one will get credibility without some sort of group that has experience behind them. No one with experience behind them wants to touch the Yankee with a 10' electric cattle prod.....until the State gives some sort of working agreement to the new group. And a new group is going to need the things that we have talked about. Landmarking the trainset will do nothing to help you get it away from the Yankmee Groap. The state, a new group, and funding are the only things that will do that. I do thing that Landmarking the trainset is a good idea.....but, not for the reasons that you believe it is.

I don't know, Steamer. You post a doomsday scenario with everything that is said. Suffice to say, if we could get the National Register to take an interest, I don't see a real problem in any of the scenarios that you have presented. Once the federal government is interested, Heavens Gates open. As being "on the list", at a bare minimum, I don't think that it would be a long shot to see the Yankee wind up at Steamtown - and no, not in the conga scuttle row, but in it's own barn with visitor interaction devices. Frankly, a sell to the Register may be all that is needed here.