Silver Line Thread/Tracker

[MickD]

That might be the only logical way to make it a true rapid transit line,but I don't see this current (Menino) adminstration making any great effort in
to support that suggestion.Plus I think the people in Chinatown would be very vocal in their opposition,which these days makes that a very sensitive politcal issue.
Also regarding Ron's statement about narrow streets,that turn onto Temple can be quite an adventure,it'll be that much more so onto Winter!!
LOL!!

[Ron Newman]

Chinatown would only benefit from a better transit service. There's no reason anyone there would oppose it.

[MickD]

But they were very much opposed to the original plan whichis one reason
this new one is being proposed.

[gt7348b]

Do the other cities run Silver Line-sized buses up pedestrian streets as narrow as Washington and Winter streets?

Yes - Brussels (around the Bourse and de Broukere), Antwerp (right outside Centraal Station) and Vienna (I forget the name of the street but it is near Pilgramgasse station where I used to work). You could count Atlanta with South Broad Street and Upper Alabama Street, but it seems like only the homeless people and federal employees use the streets. The festival marketplace thing didn't quite work out.

It works in other cities but in these other cities to cars blatenly drive and double park in the "dedicated" bus lane?

That's an enforcement problem more than anything else, but yes to that too. When I'm in Brussels I regularly ride routes (Rts 95, 12, and 71 if you're interested - www.stib.be) with articulated buses on streets from the Middle Ages with parking on both sides, pedestrians (and tourists) all over the road, and - my personal favorite - where the bottom of the articulated section scrapes the road as it goes through in intersection or over a speed hump. Fun. And then there are the trams with the brown leather seats, multilingual announcements that work, and indirect lighting . . . image that running down Washington Street!

My point is that technically there is nothing to prevent the articulated buses from running in downtown crossing - other than the fact the it hasn't been done in Boston before - and that is not really an argument at all. I personally think the Silver Line (Washington St section) should be a center lane ROW and LRV, but I agree with the sentiment that in the current climate there is neither support at the State House and even less in Washington to provide the T with the money to upgrade. Like MickD said, the T should probably cut its losses and make do with they are getting - and we should just enjoy the ride because in 50 years, people like us will be posting on the descendents of message boards "Hey, do remember what it was like to ride the articulated Silver Line buses through Downtown Crossing? Yeah - the turns on Winter Street!" Yes the turns are tight, but tight turns are what make transit in Boston memorable and different from other U.S. transit cities - just think of Bolyston. The buses aren't going to destroy the pedestrianized feel of Downtown Crossing, that will happen all by itself if nothing replaces one of the Macys.

[RailBus63]

Downtown Crossing may be the worst 'pedestrian mall' in North America - every time I've visited there in recent years, there have been 'authorized' vehicles' all over the place - police cars, delivery trucks, etc. Silver Line buses would not exactly be running through the middle of Nirvana.

I also believe that fans on this board need to stop talking about the Silver Line Washington St. service as a failure. It has its problems, sure - enforcement of the 'bus only' lanes is poor, and the MBTA could do a much better job of managing headways along the line. But the fact is that ridership has almost doubled since the Route 49 days, so they must be doing something right.

Jim

[gt7348b]

I don't think the Silver Line is a failure - its ridership certainly proves that it isn't. It is doing what it was designed to do, but it could be improved. It was definitely a compromise though to get federal funding for the project since Federal funding was available for the Piers Transitway, but not the Washington Street replacement project. By putting the two together - they became one big project eligible for federal funding. Combined with the BRT bubble in the late 1990s, well, the Silver line is just a creature of its time - like all transport investments.

But, it works at getting people from A to B better than the replacement 49 bus service. Though, I'm still not sure the argument can be termed "equal or better service" than the El.

As for the worst pedestrian mall in the U.S. - my vote goes for the South Broad Street mall in Atlanta. Once you get south of the Old Rich's building (Atlanta's Filene's) - you have lovely festival white shelters, brick pavings, empty store fronts and then - tada - a big wide sidewalk with parking lots!! At least DTX has people in it.

[CS]

Downtown Crossing may be the worst 'pedestrian mall' in North America - every time I've visited there in recent years, there have been 'authorized' vehicles' all over the place - police cars, delivery trucks, etc. Silver Line buses would not exactly be running through the middle of Nirvana.

I also believe that fans on this board need to stop talking about the Silver Line Washington St. service as a failure. It has its problems, sure - enforcement of the 'bus only' lanes is poor, and the MBTA could do a much better job of managing headways along the line. But the fact is that ridership has almost doubled since the Route 49 days, so they must be doing something right.

Jim

I do not believe "fans" on this board need to stop talking about SL Washington Street. Do you know why Ridership doubled? It doubled because their is a higher frequency and larger vehicles to hold the people. I come from the standpoint of not a railfan, but rather an advocate for better transit to people who need. Wake up - most people who ride the Silver Line have no choice because they have no car - just like the 28 and the 22 and the 23 and all the routes in Dorchester \ Roxbury. People just do not understand it - you go to New York and there is transit in the neighborhoods that need it. You come to Boston, there's crowded buses, that are crowded at all hours of the day. I am telling you as a transit dependant person who lives in Dorchester, the service SUCKS. I wish I lived in any other neighborhood or suburb just for the better transit.
This is way beyond railfanning. I don't care if it's a bus, or light rail or an el - there needs to be some kind of real rapid transit in this area. Saying Washington Street isn't a failure is like saying the War in Iraq is a success as well (then again, some people argue that too).

Bottom line - the Washington Street is a huge success as another bus route. As a rapid transit route, it is laughable. I urge you to ride Washington Street and then ride Waterfront and then come back and tell me that Washington is a successful rapid transit line.

[MickD]

It's true the patronage has climbed considerably but it can be by no means considered rapid transit,and it can't be called a sucess without it being a straight run through from Dudley Square to Logan.The whole point was to connect all the pieces.I mean you could always get any number of buses from South Station to the airport.Plymouth &Brockton
as an example.They cost more surely,but they also stop directly at all terminals.This scenario is by no means unique to Massachusetts.Look at The NJ forums and see what's about to unfold with the Xanadu project in
The Meadowlands and the railspur that's supposed to built.There's all the potential for a Big Dig proportioned scandal there.I think part of the problem is that these projects are conceived in no small part by people
who might not have an every day use for them.CS,you have far more insight into this than I do by commuting on it daily.You're of the populus this was truly meant to benefit and you don't give the impression of being at satisfied with the way it's developed.

[RailBus63]

Downtown Crossing may be the worst 'pedestrian mall' in North America - every time I've visited there in recent years, there have been 'authorized' vehicles' all over the place - police cars, delivery trucks, etc. Silver Line buses would not exactly be running through the middle of Nirvana.

I also believe that fans on this board need to stop talking about the Silver Line Washington St. service as a failure. It has its problems, sure - enforcement of the 'bus only' lanes is poor, and the MBTA could do a much better job of managing headways along the line. But the fact is that ridership has almost doubled since the Route 49 days, so they must be doing something right.

Jim

I do not believe "fans" on this board need to stop talking about SL Washington Street. Do you know why Ridership doubled? It doubled because their is a higher frequency and larger vehicles to hold the people.

Really? So, if I put articulated buses on other routes and ran a few more buses, their ridership would double too?

I think it is more likely that a significant number of riders before July 2002 used to ride a bus to the Orange Line, but now take the Silver Line because it gives them a faster overall ride. If a new service convinces riders to alter their travel patterns, then it's hardly a failure in my opinion.

I come from the standpoint of not a railfan, but rather an advocate for better transit to people who need.

Nothing wrong with that.

Wake up - most people who ride the Silver Line have no choice because they have no car

So what did they do before July 2002?

- just like the 28 and the 22 and the 23 and all the routes in Dorchester \ Roxbury. People just do not understand it - you go to New York and there is transit in the neighborhoods that need it. You come to Boston, there's crowded buses, that are crowded at all hours of the day. I am telling you as a transit dependant person who lives in Dorchester, the service SUCKS. I wish I lived in any other neighborhood or suburb just for the better transit.

I grew up in Dorchester myself, down the street from Codman Square. If we wanted to go to Boston, we took the 26 bus to Ashmont and the train from there. Not much has changed since - to get to downtown, you have to take the bus to one of the subway lines.

Yeah, I know - for some people in the Dudley and Egleston Square areas and along Washington St., they lost direct, fast service via the Orange Line. But for just as many people and maybe more who live near one of the Corridor stations, their commute has improved. For most Roxbury and Dorchester residents, though, not much has changed - their bus just goes to a different rapid transit station now.

This is way beyond railfanning. I don't care if it's a bus, or light rail or an el - there needs to be some kind of real rapid transit in this area. Saying Washington Street isn't a failure is like saying the War in Iraq is a success as well (then again, some people argue that too).

Wait a minute, you're losing me here. On the one hand, you say you don't care if improved transit service is a bus, light rail or an el. You admit above that Silver Line service is indeed an improvement over Route 49. Yet you still insist it's a failure. A disappointment, maybe, but I think we've established that it is not a failure.

I think - I hope - you know that I'm not ignoring your concerns about better transit, or arguing that the Silver Line Washington St. service is just peachy keen the way it is. Just a few posts up, I wrote about two major issues - the lack of enforcement of the 'Bus only' lanes and the MBTA's poor management of vehicles out on the line. I think we both agree that the MBTA and the City of Boston have done a poor job. But it's one thing to say that the service can be improved, and another thing entirely to brand it a 'failure'.

(And I'd be happy to debate the Iraq war with you, too, but this is not the place for that).

Bottom line - the Washington Street is a huge success as another bus route. As a rapid transit route, it is laughable. I urge you to ride Washington Street and then ride Waterfront and then come back and tell me that Washington is a successful rapid transit line.

It isn't right now, but it can be.

Jim

[CS]

I think you are right - it is not a failure, just a dissapointment - I'll accept that.
Before the Silver Line you would just find a different way to get Downtown whether it was the OL, another bus to the RL or the 49.

People in Dorchester aren't just trying to get Downtown - I teach at a school in Roxbury and this requires me to go to Dudley and it's just unbearable riding the bus. It gets so crowded - I can't even explain how crowded it is. I stopped taking it. I actually have my boss drive me to Hynes so I can take a train. Of course, this really doesn't have anything to do with the Silver Line (yet) just general crap service in the inner city. But I know if artic buses and faster service on routes such as the 23 and 28 (which is being proposed, thank god) the ridership will jump because of the fact that there is more space and service. People won't have to find others ways of getting to where they have to go (including going all the way to Hynes).
There isn't anything they are doing on Washington Street that is different then other routes except that its an Artic, there are less stops and you can transfer to real rapid transit (when they don't run out of subway transfers, and they have before) and that is why the ridership was increased. Can you imagine if they really had dedicated bus lanes or a ROW for the buses so they can really get to Downtown and back in 10 minuites? Or of course if it was light rail...

If there was a heavy rail line from Downtown down to Dudley via the Silver Line and to Mattapan via the 28 it would easily be one of the heaviest used lines on the T. Perhaps they should consider extending rail in places that would benefit most instead of suburbs.

[octr202]

There are so many things to regret with the Silver Line process, that sometimes its hard to know where to start, but I think we're reaching the same point from different diretions -- the Silver Line has improved transit service on Washington St. It is a very successful bus service. However, its still a crime that it is still sold as "rapid transit service" to the community. Its barely even right to call the Waterfront "rapid transit" and that's light years ahead of Washington St.

To me, after the fact that the public was sold a "smoke and mirrors" charade that the Silver Line would be better than buses (its not better than buses, its better than buses operated the way the MBTA operates buses), its that so much time and expense was wasted on components of the Silver Line that have no useful element in the bus service, but were strung on at great expense to make it look like it was worthy of its name. The $250,000 shelters that don't protect you from the elements, the electronic kiosks that don't work, the hugely overdesigned stations on the waterfront. The Washignton St. segment cost what, $50 million for a two mile bus route?

There are a lot of lessons that could be applied from the Silver Line to the top 10 or 20 bus routes on the system -- larger vehicles, dedicated lanes where feasible, consolidated stops, shelters at stops, and (hopefully someday) GPS vehicle monitoring and dispatching. As CS points out, you could apply these elements, sans the silver-plated glitz, to the 23, the 28, the 1, the 66, the 73, the 77, the 111 (by no means a comprehensive list), and I bet you'd get similiar numbers to what happened on Washington St. But, this notion that the Silver Line isn't a bus but is really rapid transit means that those measures can't be taken without a massive program to spend capital money on features that aren't really necessary.

Take a moment to consider all the benefits to the region and the MBTA of a 25-50% ridership increase on the 15 busiest bus routes -- that's pretty staggering. Too bad we don't have money for that instead of building silver-plated works of art.

[RailBus63]

I think we all agree that it's a shame that a light rail extension from Boylston to Dudley was not built, but that is the federal government's fault.

The MBTA has since dropped the ball numerous times. The Silver Line should operate in an exclusive center reservation from Melnea Cass Boulevard to the Cathedral. From the Cathedral to downtown, the roadways should be configured to favor buses over other vehicles, including signal priority systems, restricting left turns at certain hours and even a restriction on single-occupant automobile traffic on Washington St. from NEMC to Temple Place to allow buses to move through more swiftly.

I also agree that other heavily traveled bus routes should also receive similar improvements. Articulated buses and signal priority systems are a no-brainer. The T also needs to overhaul its management of surface routes - they should follow the New York model of assigning 'surface line dispatchers' to key areas and allowing them to turn back buses, run express, etc. to keep the lines on schedule.

Jim

[aline1969]

I agree with you cs...but sadly wake up.... I have inside info that the T will be doing a massive bus wave cut on many many routes and next year they will raise the fare. I ride buses from forest hills and they are jammed all the time too.... but the big cuts are coming soon, from my inside sources

[trider2066]

Route 28 (Mattapan-Ruggles) is gonna get the 60-ft long buses??? If so, when will those buses be used for this route? Because everytime I board the 28, it gets packed like crazy.

[Reddy Rocker]

On the upper note, I rode the Silver Li(n)e from Dudley to Park Street (actually Downtown Crossing, but that stop is close enough to both stations) on the day when the UMass shuttle was reduced due to the drunk student driving her car into the Atlantic Ocean. I took the 8 to Dudley, then the Silver to Park. I discovered how the fare box works on the Silver Li(n)e now, although it would be confusing to newbs, or to those who don't have Charlie Tickets/Passes. Overall, the ride was ok. Could've been better had it been light rail, but that's a wish we know can't be fulfilled.