RULES QUESTIONS FOR EMPLOYEES

Let's see how sharp some of our employees are...................
Scenario.......WB train leaves Far Rockaway and is enroute to Inwood when they are ordered to make a reverse move back to Far Rockaway due to a track condition ahead. The low home signal is visible from the point where the train is. Using your knowledge of the Rules that apply, what is the authority needed to make the reverse move??
Answers to follow shortly.

A train order would be required. If a train is west of the low homes then it is also west of the End of Block sign so the it is on maintrack. Maintrack rules are in effect specifically for this example Rules 261 to 264. Rule 262 states;

"A train for which direction of traffic has been established must not move in the opposite direction without proper interlocking signal indication or train order."

Since Far Rockway is not an interlocking, the low home in question is not an interlocking signal, so that fact that it is visible does not fullfill the requirements of Rule 262. In addition Note 1 which allows movements for switching and other purposes to be made without complying with Rule 262 is not in effect on the Far Rockaway branch.Therefore as I said train order authority would be required. In reality you would likely be ordered to make the move without a train order by the Section Dispatcher

Good job! The fact that the low homes are not interlocking signals is key. Most people forget about that and say that proper signal indication is the authority to make the move. The part about the Dispr. allowing the move to be made verbally is very questionable. That would be a direct violation of Rule 262. The call would have to be made by the Superintendent Train Movement and I would bet that it would be under emergency conditions only.

bluebelly wrote:A train order would be required. If a train is west of the low homes then it is also west of the End of Block sign so the it is on maintrack. Maintrack rules are in effect specifically for this example Rules 261 to 264. Rule 262 states;

"A train for which direction of traffic has been established must not move in the opposite direction without proper interlocking signal indication or train order."

Since Far Rockway is not an interlocking, the low home in question is not an interlocking signal, so that fact that it is visible does not fullfill the requirements of Rule 262. In addition Note 1 which allows movements for switching and other purposes to be made without complying with Rule 262 is not in effect on the Far Rockaway branch.Therefore as I said train order authority would be required. In reality you would likely be ordered to make the move without a train order by the Section Dispatcher

Now it's very obvious why I've been seeking a rule book for the LIRR.

OK..........try this one:

Give the only location on the property where the same signal can display an aspect of CLEAR BLOCK as well as being capable of displaying an aspect of ABSOLUTE CLEAR if a train were operating with a speed failure.

I'm not an employee; in fact I know very little about the signals on the rr, but I'd like to take a stab at this one. Based solely on a hunch, I'm gonna say the West Hempstead branch.

SK2MY wrote:OK..........try this one:

Give the only location on the property where the same signal can display an aspect of CLEAR BLOCK as well as being capable of displaying an aspect of ABSOLUTE CLEAR if a train were operating with a speed failure.

That's an easy one. The westbound pedestal type signal leaving Lead interlocking on the Long Beach branch.

I have one for you. Give the only location on the property(and possibly the world) where there are 2 eastbound signals that sit back to back to each other.

Oh and BTW the section dispatcher can order a train to make a reverse move without complying with Rule 262. It happens from time to time.

This is a great thread.

But I must interject.

There is no instance where a Train Dispatcher may "order" or tell a train to disregard Rule 262 where the rule is in effect. The only place where this may have happened would be the West Hempstead Branch, or other spots where "Note 1" is in effect.

Any dispatcher who who requests a crew disregard Rule 262 is violating the rule. I wouldn't say it doesn't happen, but hte crew as well as the dispatcher would be liable for discipline if this one fell apart.

Now there have been times we have permitted a train to "roll" back slightly to remove debri or something similar, but even that would be a stretch and would technically be a rules or at least a train handling violation.

And yes, several Superintendents can abrogate certain rules; it would depend on the rule, the qualifications of the Superintendent (not all are qualified on rules or would have the authority) and the information which he conveyed to you.

Now my question for you sharp guys:

If a train is operating with a speed control failure and the Valley operator displays a Absolute-Clear on the Westward home signal leaving Far Rockaway, what is your authority to accept it?

Remember, Far Rockaway, as discussed above, is not an interlocking.


Clem

Well Clem lets see, since a train cannot leave it's intial terminal with a speed failure I am going to go out on a limb and guess that you would need a train order to leave Far Rock with a speed failure. Then after that permission from the block operator to the signal.
Clem are mistaken regarding a train dispatcher in 204 not having authority to order a train to make a reverse move w/o complying with rule 262. Such orders have been given, and refusing to obey a direct order from 204 will probably result in being brought up on charges. Basically if told to do so the Condr or Engineer will reply that they feel the move violates rule 262 and they need a direct order and the dispatchers name. The dispatcher will reply "My name is So and So and I am giving you a direct order to move your train.
There are of course some things that you cannot be ordered to do regardless of who is giving the order. For example you cannot be ordered to leave your intial terminal as a passengers train with trucks cut out. You cannot be ordered to leave a station ahead of schedule in single track 251 territory.

Hey Clem, great question..I think I have this right, but correct me if I'm wrong. The Special Instructions are the authority you would need.

Special Instruction 1280-1296-L1 states:

"At Far Rockaway, when an Absolute - Clear aspect (Rule 281A) is displayed on the westward pedestal type home signal at the entrance to Rule 410 territory it governs the movement of a train with a malfunction of the ASC apparatus between the home signal at Far Rockaway and Valley."

Bluebelly, unless it's changed, when I was in Engineer training years ago, they stated that the Chief Dispatcher was the final say in interpreting rules when there was a dispute of that sort between a Condr and Engr or train crew and an Operator, but he didn't have the authority to supercede rules...only a qualified Superintendant could do that. If I was operating a train that was ordered to back up in violation of Rule 262, I would insist that a Superintendant do the "ordering" not a Dispatcher.

Is it possible that when you are listening to a Section Dispatcher order a train to violate a rule that maybe he is conveying the wishes of a Superintendant?

By the way, that was an excellent answer to "SK's" question!

Blue, we're assuming the ASC failure was en route, after leaving the station.

Liquid is correct.

Now permit me to visit your post on Train Dispatchers' authority.

To grasp what I'm putting forth here, you must understand that Train Dispatchers, Chief Train
Dispatchers and Operators, Station Masters, etc. are governed by the rules. This is covered in the
"800" series Rules where their responsibilities are stated. As employees subject to the rules, they cannot
abrogate them or order anyone else to do so.

The Chief Train Dispatcher may interpret the rules. He would be the highest authority a crew
would general deal with on a day to day basis who would tell them what he feels a rule means.
If your interpretation differs from his he may order you to comply with his interpretation.

Only a qualified individual who is "above" the book's authority, such as a Superintendent, can
order you to disregard an operating rule.

Now a dispatcher may convey the Superintendent's order, but without getting into a pissing match
should also relate to you that the "Superintendent - Train Movement" is giving that order.

We can definitely agree that what you describe has been done and does happen, but it is wrong
and subjects the dispatcher (and the crew) to discipline. I can name two dozen times crews have
been held accountable for doing what a dispatcher incorrectly ordered.

The subject you offer here is a complex one. When an order is valid, when it must be qualified,
when it must meet with blind compliance is the subject of countless Law Board decisions in the
industry. The answers are not simple and generally relate to the level of danger that would exist
if you complied vs. the urgency of the order and the precautions that have been made in lieu of the
rule... There are individuals of sufficient authority who can order you to do virtually anything,
including, as you state, leaving ahead of schedule in Single Track 251" We can post an entire
thread on the subject of insubordination and who can order what.

But if you bear in mind that nobody who is under the authority of the Rules of the Operating
Department may violate them or order you to violate them, you will be on firm ground.

So if a Train Dispatcher orders you to back up when under Rule 262, and
you were sure that would violate the rule,
you would hang up, call the
Chief and tell him you'd need a higher authority to violate that rule. If he agrees with the
Dispatcher, he'll give you the name of a Superintendent properly qualified.

Follow these guidelines, and I'll represent you at your trial.

All good stuff. We non-employees could learn a lot.

So- where are the two eastward signals placed back-to-back?

-otto-

Hint; think west

As a response to Bluebelly's question about the back to back eastward signals... The only ones I can think of are the two low homes when proceeding east out of the Advance Yard onto Main-line 4, just before the split derail. The first one would be considered the home signal to Jay Interlocking.

Joe

Sorry Emfinite those low homes are both eastbound signals but they are not back to back , they face the same way. The signals I am refering to face in the oposite direction from each other so that there backs almost touch, and yet they are both eatbounds signals.

Here's a hint, they are free standing position light signals.

Clem regarding our prior posts. A public forum is probably not the best place to discuss this. But I can say for a fact that the exact scenerio I mention has taken place more then once. Fortunatly I have yet to be put in such a position. And since I try to spend most of my time in manual block territory, hopefully I never will .