RULES QUESTIONS FOR EMPLOYEES

JJ Earl. You were one of those "real" freight Conductors I remember working with as a young Engineer. You had a lot of great stories about the LIRR and it was great listening to you. There weren't too many freight guys who were patient with us as trainees slamming the train around and applying way too much brake, but you were a good guy about it.

The various "Extras"....

Passenger Extra when designated as such, was required to have absolute block protection. They couldn't move the train under Rules 317 or 318. Even if the train was a freight but designated a Psgr Extra, it had to have absolute block protection under Rule 316 only. Having it in the Rule Book today is an anachronism because the designation is nolonger necessary. All extras are afforded absolute block protection.

Extra A train that could be moved under Rules 316, 317 or 318. As long as it was not a passenger train, they could run it under Clear(316) or Permissive Block(317/318).

Track Car Extra The only type of extra that can consist of several units not actually coupled together but still be considered "one train" so to speak.

Work Extra The only type of extra train that does not have a specified direction. In theory, it is always opposing, never following anyone. It is run as if it were pre-Rule 251, because Rule 251 will not help you supercede superiority since the train is always opposing other trains.
A common question comes up about Work Extras. Since they have no direction specified, if they were to meet an Extra, who takes the siding? The answer is there would be no meet in the traditional sense. The Extra would be informed about the Work Extra because the Extra is required to receive a copy of the Work Extras running order. Unless the Work Extra was relieved from protecting against Extras, the Work Extra is required to have flagmen out protecting itself from Extras. If the Work Extra was relieved from protecting against Extras, it would state so in the copy of the Work Extra's running order he received and the Extra once at the limits of the Work Extra's authority, would have to protect itself from the Work Extra by literally following a flagman. With this kind of protection necessary, no train order meet will occur. And if one did, it would violate the rules. It all seems silly because with Manual Block rules, the block would have to be clear anyway but the Train Rules require what I stated and since they were there before Block rules, they are the boss.

Neat stuff isn't it?

Cool Beans!

Form 19 writes;

JJ Earl. You were one of those "real" freight Conductors I remember working with as a young Engineer

Well, thank you.
The more time goes by, it seems, the better I got. (?)

Dave Keller, I forgot to thank you for posting the Train Orders!

The second one is a good example of what was used in the days before using an "A" Card to represent trains. To anyone interested, before "A" Cards were used for that purpose, they used a Train Register to represent trains were there was one and train orders where there was no Train Register. They took the language from the train order and later incoporated it into the "A" Card. It is an example of script writing being used when writing an order. Someone in our Training Dept. was teaching that you can only use print when writing a train order and that is not true. When I was a younger Engineer, most Operators wrote script and some had beautiful handwriting (there was one lady who almost always typed them). Even during the Shinnecock golf program in the 90's, there was an Operator who was writing dozens of orders in beautiful script and the procedures have not changed since then.

Cool Beans!

Liquid:

The present Supt. is NOT in favor of making that move verbally. The previous Supt. was all for it.

Wait wait wait wait....... so what you are trying to say is..... back in the day, to show engineer trainee's a bad "way" to run the train, they would make you sit in the back in the hack and you would get tossed around so bad you would fall out of your seat and hit walls, right Form 19? Worse than going MAS thru Queens interlocking?

From 19:

You're quite welcome for the train orders.

Back in the old days, many of the block operators used what was called "Telegrapher's Script." It was usually very fancy. Sometimes, the words even connected to keep the "flow going." I have several of them in my archive.

Here's an example of George Ayling's, the Operator/Agent for many years at CI, who was well-known for his fancy train orders:


And here's an example of the fine penmanship of operator James Osborne when he worked "MR" cabin at Manorville:



Notice the words "No. and one" connected together.
Dave Keller

Hi Dave, I never knew that they had a form of handwriting known as "Telegrapher's Script". Thank you for the education. I guess it was a scaled down form of the curvasive writing so popular in the late 19th Century. Dave, some operators had beautiful script even in my time on the LIRR.

SK I read "Liquids" question to you about backing up. Are we talking about the Supt. of Rules "S.M."? Or did they recently appoint someone else? Because "S.M." was in favor of backing up with permission, as long as they followed the procedures for issuing a "Form R" but not actually issue the order, prior to giving permission. This he told me himself. My personal opinion didn't agree with him but he is the Supt. of Rules and you got to do what he says. If you are refering to the previous Supt. who retired, "R.C.", he was NOT in favor of backing up in "410" type territory. I still talk to him and have done so recently. Maybe Liquid isn't up on the new appointments if there were any. Neither am I by the way because I thought "S.M." was still the boss of the Rules Dept. SK, is there a new Supt.?

Tushy, the Conductors would make you ride on the "patio" of the Hack and tell the Engineer to let the slack out hard so you saw it from their perspective. The first time I got to ride in a Hack, I was so excited and it was a beautiful day in Yard A and the Condr snapped at me to hold on tight. Being a youngster I figured "what's this old farts problem?" The slack came out hard and the little hack snapped foward and I fell off face foward on the ground. The Condr was laughing, wouldn't stop the train, called me a dumba-s and yelled to me that I was going to be left if I didn't run to catch them. I had to get up and run after them to catch up and get on. By the way, we were going to Fresh Pond then Hampton Materials. The Conductor on that job was really an excellent guy to work with and I learned so much from him. Once I qualified and ran by myself, I have to admit, that I was always conscious of the slack and the ride quality for the guys. So he was right on with his little lesson.

Cool Beans!

Boy am I sorry I brought this up. I should have just answered the question and left it at that. SK have to agree with both Liquid and Form 19 regarding the current Supt and reverse moves with permission. When I qualified we discussed this exact situation and we were told very clearly that if given a direct order, we are to handle it the way I laid out in my earlier post, and if we refused we could be charged with insubordination. I'm not making this up and I did not imagine it. But whatever, why don't we let this die and get back to the fun,more questions?

Hay Blue,

So sorry if you're feelin' picked on. Certainly not my intention; we all find the discussion very interesting and love your posts. As you probably can get from between all the lines here, controversy is not limited to this Bulletin Board. It goes around and around on the highest levels of the Railroad.

Unfortunately there are certain persons in high appointed positions with so little skill that their rulings are simply dismassed by those above them and around them. It leaves guys like you in an awkward position. You say what you heard, step back and get beat up... It would be funny if it wasn't so dangerous.

Those who are really into the Standard Rules view them as bigger than any one Superintendent and sometimes they are discussed on that level without much regard for what any one "expert" may say. Get my drift?

Keep up the posts, and don't hesitate to jump on my when you disagree. I actually enjoy the opportunity to think and comment about this stuff when someone disagrees.

Clem

Blue:

Same here. I am not picking on you at all. Just giving my opinion from experience. I am not doubting your experiences in any way. It's just ironic how the rules can be bent depending on who the "Grand High Exalted Mystic Ruler" is!

Okay guys, please indulge a few ignorant questions from a non-employee/signal buff.

First, re: time; I've always wondered why the railroad still uses "12-hour" time (AM & PM) instead of 24-hour time. Wouldn't 24-hour time be more "error-proof"? Showing say 6PM as 18:00 hours would be more exact, wouldn't it? That way no mistakes could be made re: using AM and PM. The military and most public-safety agencies have been using 24-hour time for many years.

Second, re: earlier posts about Hempstead and Far Rockaway stations. I've never been to Far Rockaway; don't know how many tracks there are. But how can there be "low-home" signals without an interlocking? I thought the whole purpose of that type signal was to designate "slow" speed routes thru interlockings. Obviously there is more to this story. Please enlighten me.

Head End:

As a train enters Far Rockaway on the main track, there are EB End of Block Signs next to the EB low homes. Even though Far Rockaway is not an interlocking, once a train passes the low homes, the station tracks (1 and 2) are soon to follow with bumping blocks on the east end. Low home signals would provide the proper signal aspects as trains head toward the bumping block. Hope this helps.

In reality you would likely be ordered to make the move without a train order by the Section Dispatcher

Really? Well Bluebelly is the authority

Oh and BTW the section dispatcher can order a train to make a reverse move without complying with Rule 262. It happens from time to time.

bluebelly knows all he's a rules examiner, self-appointed of course

Boy am I sorry I brought this up. I should have just answered the question and left it at that. SK have to agree with both Liquid and Form 19 regarding the current Supt and reverse moves with permission. When I qualified we discussed this exact situation and we were told very clearly that if given a direct order, we are to handle it the way I laid out in my earlier post, and if we refused we could be charged with insubordination. I'm not making this up and I did not imagine it. But whatever, why don't we let this die and get back to the fun,more questions

bluebelly is wrong and asking the boys to stop picking on him.


I'm a Conductor for 24 years which is probably a lot longer than Bluebelly. Bluebelly if you don't want a counter opinion to what you write, then maybe you should not post the way you do. Specifically correcting people on here about what Section Dispatchers can do as if your the authority on the subject. If you want to write like a Rules Examiner then accept different opinions or don't write. Go ahead guys ask more questions. So far Bluebelly who works in manual block territory managed to answer one question about Far Rockaway and was dead silent on the rest.

Coupler, wow I'm sorry I didn't realise that you own Railroad.net. May I suggest a little less coffee in the morning or maybe some de-caff .Oh and by the way I answed 3 questions, but I did get 1 (Clems) wrong. And asked one myself.I have no problem getting corrected, I did not correct anyone, I stated that I disagree ,and still do.
Clem and Sk, I don't feel I am getting picked on.

Bluebelly, there was a lot more questions asked on here about your manual block experience and you haven't answered one. I thought you were the authority on rules? Instead, a buff who isn't even an employee, emfinite, answers a complicated question about train orders. Gee, what happened? Maybe we could ask simple questions like "what is a block?" so you can feel special. We'll let the buffs take care of the more complicated questions.

Stop picking on me, please please! It's not that I don't know what I'm talking about, it's that they're asking questions that I don't know the answer to. It's not fair!