Let's continue having fun here.
This is a great thread. Let's not get it locked down.
Dave Keller
Railroad Forums
RULES QUESTIONS FOR EMPLOYEES
- Discussion of the past and present operations of the Long Island Rail Road.
Moderator: Liquidcamphor
by Dave Keller
OK guys . . . .
Let's continue having fun here.
This is a great thread. Let's not get it locked down.
Dave Keller
Let's continue having fun here.
This is a great thread. Let's not get it locked down.
Dave Keller
by dukeoq
Coupler, where've you been all this time with your comments.
All of a sudden you come up with derogatory advice to someone who has more than your twenty four years.
If you can't come up with answers, don't come up with criticism
Like Dave say’s. “We’re hear for fun” And let me add education.
If you can’t add either of these, just watch. -- and if you don’t like what you see, read Railpace.
All of a sudden you come up with derogatory advice to someone who has more than your twenty four years.
If you can't come up with answers, don't come up with criticism
Like Dave say’s. “We’re hear for fun” And let me add education.
If you can’t add either of these, just watch. -- and if you don’t like what you see, read Railpace.
by RRChef
Aside from a slight diversion, this is one of the "smartest" threads to appear here in some time. I have watched everyones comments with interest and am impressed with the knowledge presented. But, I have to ask one question. I know you guys have to commit alot of stuff to memory. How much of what we see here is from memory and how much is straight from the rule book?
Don't strain your brain, paint a train.....
by Form 19
Chef,
Speaking for myself, I'm not quoting the Rule Book with anything I said because I'm talking more from a historical standpoint. Most posts on here refer to interpretation and quoting the Rule Book would not help. To properly apply rules, you have to take several and literally mix them together to interpret them.
I'll give you an example.
Take a regular westbound train that is to operate on Single track where Rule 251 is in effect. Very basic description...the crew reads Rules S-71 and 73 to find out what trains are superior to them and determine that eastbound regulars are superior to them, they then read Rule 82 and determine that these eastbound regular trains are superior to them for 12hrs, they then read Rule S-83 to determine whether the eastbound regular trains that are superior to them for 12 hrs. have arrived or left a particular location...so that they don't violate Rule S-87, the 5 minute rule, and "run on their time". Of course there are other rules and procedures to follow but that's the Train Rules end of it.
Do you see how by adding more and more rules, you build on it and put it together?
Hope this helps Chef.
Cool Beans!
Speaking for myself, I'm not quoting the Rule Book with anything I said because I'm talking more from a historical standpoint. Most posts on here refer to interpretation and quoting the Rule Book would not help. To properly apply rules, you have to take several and literally mix them together to interpret them.
I'll give you an example.
Take a regular westbound train that is to operate on Single track where Rule 251 is in effect. Very basic description...the crew reads Rules S-71 and 73 to find out what trains are superior to them and determine that eastbound regulars are superior to them, they then read Rule 82 and determine that these eastbound regular trains are superior to them for 12hrs, they then read Rule S-83 to determine whether the eastbound regular trains that are superior to them for 12 hrs. have arrived or left a particular location...so that they don't violate Rule S-87, the 5 minute rule, and "run on their time". Of course there are other rules and procedures to follow but that's the Train Rules end of it.
Do you see how by adding more and more rules, you build on it and put it together?
Hope this helps Chef.
Cool Beans!
by Clemuel
Chef,
As with most things, if you like what you do, you tend to take an interest and remember it. The more you do it the more you remember and the deeper you search for the causes and historical background.
All of us take out the rule book from time to time, but a railroader who is interested and familiar knows what to do and how to do it virtually all of the time without referring to the book.
In years past, the LI had a very professional Rules Department which did much to keep the men interested in and discussing the rules among themselves. They were truly the envy of the industry.
As there was much more manual block on the road, employees were forced to learn it and couldn't hide from it as they can do today by selecting jobs that would never apply rules.
Clem
As with most things, if you like what you do, you tend to take an interest and remember it. The more you do it the more you remember and the deeper you search for the causes and historical background.
All of us take out the rule book from time to time, but a railroader who is interested and familiar knows what to do and how to do it virtually all of the time without referring to the book.
In years past, the LI had a very professional Rules Department which did much to keep the men interested in and discussing the rules among themselves. They were truly the envy of the industry.
As there was much more manual block on the road, employees were forced to learn it and couldn't hide from it as they can do today by selecting jobs that would never apply rules.
Clem
by Lupo 10
Gentlemen,
Thank you. Great thread. I'm tempted to print out certain areas and show what you guys know and do the next time I'm sitting next to a commuter that is griping and complaining. Like my favorite......"If the train in front of us is out of service, why don't they just back the train up already?" I just shake my head and nod. Now I can actually educate them!
Thanks again! Resume.......
Thank you. Great thread. I'm tempted to print out certain areas and show what you guys know and do the next time I'm sitting next to a commuter that is griping and complaining. Like my favorite......"If the train in front of us is out of service, why don't they just back the train up already?" I just shake my head and nod. Now I can actually educate them!
Thanks again! Resume.......
by emfinite
I have a few questions, guys...
1. In your own words, why is it that sometimes a Montauk train that is annuled is on an A card for Speonk and sometimes it isn't?
2. What allows a train to come out of a handthrown switch in manual bock territory and couple to their own train like a freight or passenger train rescuing itself?
Joe
1. In your own words, why is it that sometimes a Montauk train that is annuled is on an A card for Speonk and sometimes it isn't?
2. What allows a train to come out of a handthrown switch in manual bock territory and couple to their own train like a freight or passenger train rescuing itself?
Joe
by Form 19
Emfinite, this is the reason.
A westbound train that originates east of Speonk would have at some point applied Rule S-83 prior to leaving it's initial station, entering Single track or before it left a terminal. At that point, it would have been informed by Train Order or an "A" Card as to what superior trains arrived or left(through trains) and which did not. This they must do so as to not violate Rule S-87 against the superiors. Therefore, prior to arriving in Speonk, the aforementioned westbound will have already known what superiors "left" and those that did not and subsequently have Train Orders(or General Notices) in hand describing "what happened" to it/them. Having to receive that information again at Speonk would be redundant and unnecessary considering the fact that the westbound would never have made it to Speonk in the first place unless they already applied S-83 so as to not violate S-87. The concept is that if you know that trains made it to points east of Speonk, then they "left" Speonk..if you already know who didn't, you'll have that information long before you get to Speonk. This westbound will then only concern themselves with terminating trains at Speonk.
Trains that originate in Speonk, will however regard "through" trains on their "A" Card for Speonk as well as terminating trains. Simply because the first oppurtunity to "ascertain" whether superior trains have arrived or left is literally Speonk. Now I'll stretch it. If your train originated at let's say the east switch of the South Freight track in Speonk and wanted to travel west, your "A" Card must state as a point of representation, "east switch south track Speonk" and "Speonk". The "east switch south track Speonk" portion will regard "through" trains as well as terminating trains if any at that location(your first point of applying Rule S-83) but the "Speonk" portion will only regard terminating trains.
Pretty simple isn't it?
Your next question is about entering the main out east against your own train. If you are as you described, coming out of a handthrown switch, there is no signal involved. In this case simply "permission" from the Train Dispatcher. Here's why. If the Engineer got off his train and went into a siding to get another engine or train to come out and couple to his train already on the main, the concept is that he knows where his train is therefore does not need a Train Order telling him where it is. In additon, since he is not on the train on the main, he does not need a Train Order to remain where he stands. See my point? Now some will say, isn't the switch a theoretical "stop signal". ONLY if you are going against somebody else's train. Not your own. Look at a freight drilling a siding out there. They make a cut and leave their train on the main. In the siding they go and out, coupling to their train. They know where their train is, the Engineer is not on the train on the main to move it because he is drilling the siding, they are going against their own train so the switch is not a "stop signal" so no Train Orders are needed.
Some feel they need "C" Cards to do what I described. Only if you have to go past a bonifide in your face signal will you need one and only the Engineer of the train on the main can get paragraph 3 of a "C" Card.
Permission as authority comes from the time honored concept that, the minimum authority in our Rule Book is Permission. If there is no rule, publication or otherwise governing a move, Permission is the most minimum authority. For what I described, there are no direct rules and such governing those moves..therefore you fall back on the lowest level of authority..Permission.
Hope this helps answer your question because now I have a headache!
Cool Beans!
A westbound train that originates east of Speonk would have at some point applied Rule S-83 prior to leaving it's initial station, entering Single track or before it left a terminal. At that point, it would have been informed by Train Order or an "A" Card as to what superior trains arrived or left(through trains) and which did not. This they must do so as to not violate Rule S-87 against the superiors. Therefore, prior to arriving in Speonk, the aforementioned westbound will have already known what superiors "left" and those that did not and subsequently have Train Orders(or General Notices) in hand describing "what happened" to it/them. Having to receive that information again at Speonk would be redundant and unnecessary considering the fact that the westbound would never have made it to Speonk in the first place unless they already applied S-83 so as to not violate S-87. The concept is that if you know that trains made it to points east of Speonk, then they "left" Speonk..if you already know who didn't, you'll have that information long before you get to Speonk. This westbound will then only concern themselves with terminating trains at Speonk.
Trains that originate in Speonk, will however regard "through" trains on their "A" Card for Speonk as well as terminating trains. Simply because the first oppurtunity to "ascertain" whether superior trains have arrived or left is literally Speonk. Now I'll stretch it. If your train originated at let's say the east switch of the South Freight track in Speonk and wanted to travel west, your "A" Card must state as a point of representation, "east switch south track Speonk" and "Speonk". The "east switch south track Speonk" portion will regard "through" trains as well as terminating trains if any at that location(your first point of applying Rule S-83) but the "Speonk" portion will only regard terminating trains.
Pretty simple isn't it?
Your next question is about entering the main out east against your own train. If you are as you described, coming out of a handthrown switch, there is no signal involved. In this case simply "permission" from the Train Dispatcher. Here's why. If the Engineer got off his train and went into a siding to get another engine or train to come out and couple to his train already on the main, the concept is that he knows where his train is therefore does not need a Train Order telling him where it is. In additon, since he is not on the train on the main, he does not need a Train Order to remain where he stands. See my point? Now some will say, isn't the switch a theoretical "stop signal". ONLY if you are going against somebody else's train. Not your own. Look at a freight drilling a siding out there. They make a cut and leave their train on the main. In the siding they go and out, coupling to their train. They know where their train is, the Engineer is not on the train on the main to move it because he is drilling the siding, they are going against their own train so the switch is not a "stop signal" so no Train Orders are needed.
Some feel they need "C" Cards to do what I described. Only if you have to go past a bonifide in your face signal will you need one and only the Engineer of the train on the main can get paragraph 3 of a "C" Card.
Permission as authority comes from the time honored concept that, the minimum authority in our Rule Book is Permission. If there is no rule, publication or otherwise governing a move, Permission is the most minimum authority. For what I described, there are no direct rules and such governing those moves..therefore you fall back on the lowest level of authority..Permission.
Hope this helps answer your question because now I have a headache!
Cool Beans!
by bluebelly
Here is a question that came up when I was qualifying that I had such difficulty getting a straight answer to, that I was forced to seek out the ultimate manual block expert on the property, namely the engineer of 2716 &2711.
You leave Montauk as an extra, of course having all the required paper work: run order, K card, A Card. You go into clear , doesn't matter where, let's say SN. Do you need an A card to come back out?
You leave Montauk as an extra, of course having all the required paper work: run order, K card, A Card. You go into clear , doesn't matter where, let's say SN. Do you need an A card to come back out?
by SK2MY
Blue:
Let's talk about representation in the simplest terms. Your question referred to getting an A card when leaving SN siding. When you are talking about an A card, you are referring to REPRESENTATION of all regular trains due which are superior. We must be certain that those trains have arrived or left the area where your train is (in this case, SN). Just keep in mind that you must also satisfy CONDITION of the block, AUTHORITY to be on the main, and PERMISSION from the block operator.
REPRESENTATION--- think of the acronym M A R I A. When you need to represent a train, you need only ONE of the following...........MEET ORDER, ANNULLING ORDER, RIGHT OVER ORDER, ID ORDER or CLEARANCE CARD FORM A.
You question was vague in the sense that you left out some important information. I'll try to cover all bases.
1) If our WB train had a meet order at SN, no A card is needed.
2) If our WB train was issued an annulling order (annulling the opposing EB train's schedule, no A card is needed.
3) If our WB train had an ID order at SN, no A card is needed.
4) If our WB train had RIGHT OVER the EB train, again, no A card.
5) If none of the above occurred, then our train would receive Clearance Card Form A to represent the train that we are in the clear for.
Keep in mind that if the A card was issued, our WB train would report the EB by displaying markers. The engine number of the EB train would be included in the radio transmission as well. This insures the operator that the correct train has passed.
I hope this helps.
Let's talk about representation in the simplest terms. Your question referred to getting an A card when leaving SN siding. When you are talking about an A card, you are referring to REPRESENTATION of all regular trains due which are superior. We must be certain that those trains have arrived or left the area where your train is (in this case, SN). Just keep in mind that you must also satisfy CONDITION of the block, AUTHORITY to be on the main, and PERMISSION from the block operator.
REPRESENTATION--- think of the acronym M A R I A. When you need to represent a train, you need only ONE of the following...........MEET ORDER, ANNULLING ORDER, RIGHT OVER ORDER, ID ORDER or CLEARANCE CARD FORM A.
You question was vague in the sense that you left out some important information. I'll try to cover all bases.
1) If our WB train had a meet order at SN, no A card is needed.
2) If our WB train was issued an annulling order (annulling the opposing EB train's schedule, no A card is needed.
3) If our WB train had an ID order at SN, no A card is needed.
4) If our WB train had RIGHT OVER the EB train, again, no A card.
5) If none of the above occurred, then our train would receive Clearance Card Form A to represent the train that we are in the clear for.
Keep in mind that if the A card was issued, our WB train would report the EB by displaying markers. The engine number of the EB train would be included in the radio transmission as well. This insures the operator that the correct train has passed.
I hope this helps.
by Form 19
Hi Bluebelly, to answer your question, I am assuming that you were not applying time against anyone and like you state, all rules were properly complied with prior to leaving your originating point. If you simply went in the clear and no superior opposing trains were due by SN from the time you originally went in the clear to the time you occupy the main at SN, you would not need an "A" Card.
You stated that you already have an "A" Card properly representing superior opposing trains so you already know that any train that was due to have left SN has done so because all trains have made it to Montauk. If they made it to Montauk, they left SN. If any train that was due through SN prior to your arrival had not made it to Montauk, you would have already known this when applying Rule S-83 in order to not violate Rule S-87 against that train(s). Once going in the clear at SN, you would have reviewed your timetable and if no other train was due to arrive, then there is no train to represent therefore no "A" Card being necessary.
Hope this helps. If I can be of further assitance just private message me. Also, I will pass on the compliment to 2716's Engineer
M.A.R.I.A. in my opinion was always a poor acronym to describe representation of trains. To fully understand what I am saying you have to look at the history of our rules. Imagine yourself a telegrapher in Montauk a century ago. You were looking for equipment to represent the schedule of particular trains. That is where the term "representation" comes from. If a train is annuled they are telling you that it cannot be represented. If a train is meeting you, they are telling you that you will represent them at the meeting location, not where you are getting your original information. If you have right-over a train, you are now the superior train and do not have to represent particular trains that lost their superiority to you. The only way you truly represent a train is by IDing them from a train order of some sort or being issued an "A" Card stating "None" with the times of the "A" Card encompassing the train schedules that you are trying to represent. The Training Department should stop using this acronym because it becomes very confusing because it leads some to believe that they can receive an "A" Card stating "None" even with a schedule annulment due to believing that the Train Order annuling the schedule represents that train and the "A" Card represents everyone else. SK2MY, please don't think I am bashing anything you are saying. Your posts are very informative and I enjoy reading them. I just don't think Training should teach it the way they do.
Cool beans!
You stated that you already have an "A" Card properly representing superior opposing trains so you already know that any train that was due to have left SN has done so because all trains have made it to Montauk. If they made it to Montauk, they left SN. If any train that was due through SN prior to your arrival had not made it to Montauk, you would have already known this when applying Rule S-83 in order to not violate Rule S-87 against that train(s). Once going in the clear at SN, you would have reviewed your timetable and if no other train was due to arrive, then there is no train to represent therefore no "A" Card being necessary.
Hope this helps. If I can be of further assitance just private message me. Also, I will pass on the compliment to 2716's Engineer
M.A.R.I.A. in my opinion was always a poor acronym to describe representation of trains. To fully understand what I am saying you have to look at the history of our rules. Imagine yourself a telegrapher in Montauk a century ago. You were looking for equipment to represent the schedule of particular trains. That is where the term "representation" comes from. If a train is annuled they are telling you that it cannot be represented. If a train is meeting you, they are telling you that you will represent them at the meeting location, not where you are getting your original information. If you have right-over a train, you are now the superior train and do not have to represent particular trains that lost their superiority to you. The only way you truly represent a train is by IDing them from a train order of some sort or being issued an "A" Card stating "None" with the times of the "A" Card encompassing the train schedules that you are trying to represent. The Training Department should stop using this acronym because it becomes very confusing because it leads some to believe that they can receive an "A" Card stating "None" even with a schedule annulment due to believing that the Train Order annuling the schedule represents that train and the "A" Card represents everyone else. SK2MY, please don't think I am bashing anything you are saying. Your posts are very informative and I enjoy reading them. I just don't think Training should teach it the way they do.
Cool beans!
by bluebelly
Guys I know the answer, it was few years ago that I had to seek out the engineer I mentioned. But if I ever do need help I will definately PM you.
Anyway
Both correct but there is a much easier way to answer it. Simply it depends on why you are going into the clear. If you are clearing the time and block of an oppossing regular train and you do not have an ID order, a meet order, rights over order, or an annuling order for that train then you will receive an A card, stating of course that all regular trains due at SN have arrived or left . This will verify that the train that passed you is indeed the train that you intended to clear.
On the otherhand if you went in to say drop off some cars then you will not receive an A Card.
Now same scenario, except the train oipposing you is annuled by G. N. Then what?
Anyway
Both correct but there is a much easier way to answer it. Simply it depends on why you are going into the clear. If you are clearing the time and block of an oppossing regular train and you do not have an ID order, a meet order, rights over order, or an annuling order for that train then you will receive an A card, stating of course that all regular trains due at SN have arrived or left . This will verify that the train that passed you is indeed the train that you intended to clear.
On the otherhand if you went in to say drop off some cars then you will not receive an A Card.
Now same scenario, except the train oipposing you is annuled by G. N. Then what?
by Form 19
Hi Blue, I admit I tend to get "wordy" when I answer something. Sorry about that.
When a train is annuled by General Notice, it has to be handled the same way a Train Order annulment is handled. Just so I understand what you mean, are you asking does a train have to be listed as an "exception" if annuled by a G.N.? If so, yes definately. The only way it wouldn't is if the "A" Card was timed before the annuled train.
If you are asking would you have to get an "A" Card at SN if you just decided to jump into SN and the only train that would have opposed you at that time was a train annuled by a G.N. the answer would be no, because you already "ascertained" information on that train via the G.N. and on any other train prior to it on your "A" Card at Montauk.
Bear in mind these things. If you have a Train Order or G.N. annuling every opposing train, there is no train to represent, therefore no "A" Card needed. If you are the Condr or Engr of a w/b inferior from Montauk and had a Train Order in hand with every opposing trains engine number on it and for 12hrs prior to leaving Montauk ID'd every opposing train off that Order, and then stepped on your train to leave, you would not need an "A" Card as well. I know it's far fetched but just conversation.
When a train is annuled by General Notice, it has to be handled the same way a Train Order annulment is handled. Just so I understand what you mean, are you asking does a train have to be listed as an "exception" if annuled by a G.N.? If so, yes definately. The only way it wouldn't is if the "A" Card was timed before the annuled train.
If you are asking would you have to get an "A" Card at SN if you just decided to jump into SN and the only train that would have opposed you at that time was a train annuled by a G.N. the answer would be no, because you already "ascertained" information on that train via the G.N. and on any other train prior to it on your "A" Card at Montauk.
Bear in mind these things. If you have a Train Order or G.N. annuling every opposing train, there is no train to represent, therefore no "A" Card needed. If you are the Condr or Engr of a w/b inferior from Montauk and had a Train Order in hand with every opposing trains engine number on it and for 12hrs prior to leaving Montauk ID'd every opposing train off that Order, and then stepped on your train to leave, you would not need an "A" Card as well. I know it's far fetched but just conversation.
by bluebelly
Form 19 wrote:Hi Blue, I admit I tend to get "wordy" when I answer something. Sorry about that...Nothing wrong with being wordy, unless you taling a test with a time limit
Form 19 wrote:...Bear in mind these things. If you have a Train Order or G.N. annuling every opposing train, there is no train to represent, therefore no "A" Card needed. If you are the Condr or Engr of a w/b inferior from Montauk and had a Train Order in hand with every opposing trains engine number on it and for 12hrs prior to leaving Montauk ID'd every opposing train off that Order, and then stepped on your train to leave, you would not need an "A" Card as well. I know it's far fetched but just conversation.True it is farfetched, but it is the farfetched scenerios that make for the most interesting discussions .