Nomenclature: Streetcar vs. Trolley

3rdrail wrote:

JasW wrote:...trolleys run on rails in the street via electricity from overhead wires.

Not really. Many cities, including my own, run trackless trolleys, which are legally trolleys and not motor vehicles.

Trackless Trolleys are Trolleys because of their use of trolley poles ( "Pole Trolleys"), however they are NOT streetcars.

walt wrote:Trackless Trolleys are Trolleys because of their use of trolley poles ( "Pole Trolleys"), however they are NOT streetcars.

That's debateable. Most definitions of "streetcar" have it as a vehicle on rails, which would eliminate the trackless trolley. The problem becomes that when you look up the word "trolley", the first definition is usually "a streetcar". It's definitely a contradiction, but many English words are contradictions. In Boston, they have always been considered "surface cars" by the transit authority, the same as streetcars. They are definitely trolleys, and in most jurisdictions, considered "street railway vehicles" under law. One does not legally need a license to operate them, nor do they have to be registered, carry license plates, etc. the same as is the case with streetcars.

Another meander off the topic: in some localities, bus drivers were (are?) not required to be licensed by the state, only by the bus operator. This was the case for Twin City Rapid Transit and the successor Metropolitan Transit Commission, very likely because streetcar operators were not licensed in the normal fashion either.

Anyway. Streetcar vs. Trolley -- referring to the steel wheel on steel rail conveyance -- is our conversation topic.

"Trolley car" probably came about as a way to distinguish electric streetcars from horse drawn streetcars (Horse Cars). I would say that the Washington DC streetcars were trolley cars all the time; they possessed an overhead wire attachment that could be used and was used for power collection for at least part of the route. The original trolley (power collector) was a roller skate like device attached to a flexible cable connected to the streetcar. It dragged jerkily on the overhead wire or pair of wires suggestive of an upside down fishing line and float (as in trolling).

"Trackless Trolley" probably was short for "trackless trolley car" and at least one city (Milwaukee, WI) used that term when TT's were first introduced. Later, Milwaukee used the three terms "car" for street car, "trolley" for trackless trolley and "bus" for "auxiliary bus" at a time where the latter were few and mainly used for short feeder routes from low ridership areas to the streetcar and TT lines.

Apparently J.G. Brill (which built them) introduced "trolley coach" perhaps to suggest a luxury vehicle as opposed to "just a bus".
Nowadays many tour companies make mention of a "luxurious motor coach" which in reality is a bus.

There was at least one sign referring to Boston's trolleys as "subway cars" where "rapid transit trains" was on the same sign. Said sign was at the Park St. subway entrance. Meanwhile there have been numerous references to Boston's trolleys as "surface cars." Philadelphia used and still uses the term "subway-surface cars".

"Light rail" and "LRV" were invented because "trolley" and "street car" were considered too antiquated as nomenclature. Most of the early vehicles termed LRV's ran routes with much in-street trackage.

I am not sure whether some states required trackless trolleys and their operators and also streetcar operators to be licensed as general or even commercial motor vehicles/motor vehicle operators.

That reference is not to the word "cars" in Boston, as that can be used for rapid transit or surface, but "subway", as a subway is only for surface cars. A tunnel is for rapid transit.

They did not call the East Boston Tunnel (of today's Blue Line) the East Boston Subway prior to 1923 (when surface cars ran through it), did they?

Back in 1902, the Commonwealth of Massachusetts, through the Legislature, passed Chapter 534 of the Acts of the Year 1902, which amounted to a contract between the Commonwealth and the Boston Transit Commission. This was two years after work began on the East Boston Tunnel. (These aren't my rules. The State Legislature called it 109 years ago.) Here are a couple of excerpts:

Commonwealth of Massachusetts wrote:"The act authorizes the Boston Transit Commission to construct in the City of Boston a system of tunnels and subways so designed as to be adaptive for the accomodation of two tracks especially for use by elevated cars or trains and two tracks especially for use by surface cars between points..."

"The act requires that the structure for two tracks especially adapted for elevated cars or trains, called the tunnel, shall be begun immediately after the acceptance of the act by the voters of the city and that the structure for the remaining two tracks, called the subway, shall be begun at a later period to be determined as therein provided..."

Disney Guy wrote:Philadelphia used and still uses the term "subway-surface cars".

Another Philly variation, the trolley tunnel was usually out of service for maintenance at least once a week. I remember signs that said "surface cars do not operate in subway [Thursday?] mornings ..."

3rdrail wrote:

JasW wrote:...trolleys run on rails in the street via electricity from overhead wires.

Not really. Many cities, including my own, run trackless trolleys, which are legally trolleys and not motor vehicles.

And PSCNJ had "All Service Vehicles" which were buses that could operate on electric overhead or go off-wire and operate on internal combustion. Similar to Boston's modern Silver Line vehicles, see below link.

http://www.flickr.com/photos/nypl/3593436002/

And for years at least into the 1970's I remember seeing round Public Service bus stop signs depicting buses with 2 poles sticking out the back. The first time I asked my dad about it we were going to or from Tannsboro's Trolley Valhalla Railway Museum which would have made it sometime in the late 1960's. I think we were waiting for a bus on White Horse Pike in Berlin. Dad told me it was because of the "All Service Vehicles", but that the signs did not necessarily mean that the route had at one time used those vehicles.
From what I think I read those used gasoline engines when they got to the end of the wire. I've often been a little curious why gasoline instead of diesel.

Very simple in France.

If it runs above ground on tracks and on city streets, it is a "tram". If it goes under city streets, it is a "metro". Same distinction in Montreal.

kinlock wrote:Very simple in France.

If it runs above ground on tracks and on city streets, it is a "tram". If it goes under city streets, it is a "metro". Same distinction in Montreal.

No lines that do both, then?