Nomenclature: Streetcar vs. Trolley

I suppose you're all wondering why I've asked you here today. Some friends were talking about how some cities have traditionally designated their street-railway vehicles as streetcars, others as trolleys. For example, I know that in Philadelphia they've always been trolleys, and I think also in Pittsburgh and elsewhere in Pennsylvania, whereas in Los Angeles, San Francisco, and Detroit they were streetcars, and I think also in Chicago and Cleveland. So I'm looking for input on which cities in the U. S. and Canada had streetcars and which had trolleys. (Visitors to San Francisco who call cable cars "trolleys" are automatically disqualified, and rightly so.) Did any city happen to use some other term? Also, in cities like Phoenix and Salt Lake City, where there have not been streetcars in living memory, what do people call the light-rail cars today? Trains? Light rail, or LRVs? Is any consensus emerging?

They were generally termed streetcars in the Twin Cities and around Minnesota, though I'm sure "trolley" was used on occasion - especially some of the rinky-dink operations that could be termed Toonerville Trolleys.

In Toronto we have streetcars. There were once trolleys running on the streets here but they had rubber tires and did not use rails.

My grandmother used to refer to the street rail vehicles that roamed Montreal until the late 1950's (or early 1960's) as trams. I remember riding these as a kid.

Your grandmother knew what she was talking about. The company that ran them until 1950 was the Montreal Tramways Company.

ExCon90 wrote:(Visitors to San Francisco who call cable cars "trolleys" are automatically disqualified

And visitors to the defunct Penn's Landing Trolley in Philadelphia, now relocated to Scranton's http://www.ectma.org/ who would tell me our trolleys were just like the trolleys in San Francisco should also have had a few points deducted.
As to if one should call them trains or not: one piece of equipment ECTMA has is car 46, a 1907 St Louis Car Co classic heavy interurban with trainline doors. I remember an Associated Press photographer saying "that's a train car, not a trolley". That car operated on the suburban Philadelphia and Western, and I remember many locals calling the P&W 'the trolley' even though it was a 3rd rail grade separated operation.
I also remember riding the Newark City Subway shortly after they converted from PCC's to articulated LRV's. The motorman while changing ends asked me why I was riding, I said I've always liked trolleys. She said "we used to run trolleys, now we run these trains".

Ken V wrote:In Toronto we have streetcars. There were once trolleys running on the streets here but they had rubber tires and did not use rails.

In Philly we usually called the rubber tired 2 wire electric buses "trackless trolleys", but I do remember my first trip to Toronto virtually everyone called the PCC rail vehicles streetcars and their rubber tired cousins trolleys. I also remember a Toronto Transit Commision pamphlet which called their antique 1920's Peter Witt cars trolleys, the PCC's streetcars and the newer equipment LRV's. I once upon a time had read or heard that the Boeing Vertol US equipment was supposed to be called Standard Light Rail Vehicle SLRV, and the Toronto equipment was supposed to be called Canadian Light Rail Vehicle CLRV.

The problem with all of this is the inexact use of terms, meaning that there are exceptions to everything we might say about these terms. Generally, the term streetcar referred to any rail vehicle which ran on streets-- ie any vehicle used by a street railway-- irrespective of how it was powered. Thus, the 19th century horsecar was a streetcar. The term Trolley or Trolley Car derived from the "pole trolley" ie the pole and trolley wheel (later the trolley shoe) used to collect electrical current from overhead wires. Thus, a horsecar would have been a streetcar, but not a trolley car. Under this description, a cable car could also be termed a streetcar, but would not be a trolley car, though I don't believe that cable cars were commonly referred to as streetcars.
The electric bus, was often referred to ( in Philly and some other places) as a trackless trolley, which is exactly what it was (is), ie a trolley ( because of the poles) without tracks. though it is also referred to as a trolley coach.

Interurban Cars ( such as the SEPTA- Philadelphia & Western Cars described in earlier posts) are hybrids---they could technically be termed trolleys, if they used pole trolleys,--- but were not really streetcars, though some ran on streets, and some approached at least commuter rail cars in size and weight, but they were trolley car derived. P&W has always defied categorization in that it was ( is) third rail powered and thus not really a trolley line, though prior to 1931, the Norristown portion required 1/2 block of trolley pole powered street running in Norristown, thus the early P&W cars ( like No 46 that ran on the SEPTA Penns Landing line for a while) had poles. As SEPTA Route 100, that line is neither a trolley line or a streetcar line-- the closest description that applies is the old "interurban" term.

The term "tram" is simply the European term for a traction line that is not a commuter railroad line-- ie a streetcar, trolley or modern light rail line.

That pretty well summarizes the whole situation, since as Walt points out there are no clear lines of demarcation. However, my purpose in the original post is to find out what the "civilians" in various cities call their vehicles.
(I forgot all about "trams" in Montreal--I doubt we'd find as much British influence in Montreal today.)

Always called trolleys in NY-NJ when I was a kid. At least the tracks, odd remnants of which were all that were left then. (And this even extends to interurban Public Service tracks out of Newark to the suburbs.)

What I don't like are these buses that have a trolley "shell" tossed over them being called trolleys to lure tourists or add "charm" or what have you. Those aren't trolleys. Those are buses. A bus is a bus is a bus.

At an East Penn model-railroad exhibit a few years ago they had one of those things on a city street on the layout; on it there was a yellow post-it note saying "This is not a trolley."

ExCon90 wrote:I suppose you're all wondering why I've asked you here today. Some friends were talking about how some cities have traditionally designated their street-railway vehicles as streetcars, others as trolleys. For example, I know that in Philadelphia they've always been trolleys, and I think also in Pittsburgh and elsewhere in Pennsylvania, whereas in Los Angeles, San Francisco, and Detroit they were streetcars, and I think also in Chicago and Cleveland.

Actually the Philadelphia nomenmclature was a mixture of both terms. Verbally, and in most written material, including "official" material from the PRT & PTC, they were called trolleys, but utility poles near stops had a black sternciled sign on a yellow background denoted "Carstop"-- could have meant "Trolley Car" but could also have meant Streetcar. The suburban Red Arrow Lines always referred to their rail cars as "Trolleys" because of the extensive PRW, or side of the road running, on all four of that company's original lines which reflected the fact that these lines were not "streetcar" lines.

Washington DC and Baltimore, MD both referred to the traction cars as Streetcars. Baltimore also had trackless trolleys and referred to them as such; DC did not have these hybrid vehicles. DC Transit, Capital Transit, and their predecessors could not have operated trackless trolleys anywhere inside the boundaries of the "original" city, since the use of overhead wires was banned in that area. The use of the term "streetcar" rather than trolley car was probably also affected by this ban. DC's rail vehicles were not trolley cars inside the original city, since the cars operated using the underground conduit current collection method, and had their poles hooked down. ( In fact there were several series of conventional cars, obtained for use on lines that had no overhead wire segments, that were not equipped with poles at all). They only became "trolleys" when they crossed onto trackage, in outlying areas, which used the traditional overhead wire system. Hence the almost exclusive use of the term "streetcar"

Apropos of calling buses "trolleys," the city of Miami just announced that they are all over that dismal trend:

All aboard: Miami’s new trolley system would link neighborhoods

By CHARLES RABIN
[email protected]

By this fall, buses dressed up as trolleys could be shuttling Miami commuters through Coral Way, Overtown, Brickell and Allapattah, eventually carrying patrons to major events at AmericanAirlines Arena, the Adrienne Arsht Center and the new Marlins ballpark in Little Havana.

It’s finally Miami’s turn to get on board the newest transit trend in South Florida: diesel-fueled trolleys. The 28 air-conditioned vehicles will have rubber tires and a turn-of-the-century look, spiffed up in the city’s blue and white colors. Each will seat 27, including two spots for wheelchairs.

“It’s an attraction we can sell,” said Miami Mayor Tomás Regalado.

Read more: http://www.miamiherald.com/2011/04/13/2166011/all-aboard-miamis-new-trolley.html

As is pointed out in the comments, trolleys run on rails in the street via electricity from overhead wires.

I despise diesel-powered rubber-tired "trolleys" as much as the next traction buff. And, they don't have any place on a railroad forum.

Moderator's Note: I don't mind a diversion about trackless trolleys, but let's focus on steel-on-rail trolley cars.

mtuandrew wrote:I despise diesel-powered rubber-tired "trolleys" as much as the next traction buff. And, they don't have any place on a railroad forum.

Moderator's Note: I don't mind a diversion about trackless trolleys, but let's focus on steel-on-rail trolley cars.

No place at all. But it is an occasionally worthwhile diversion to heap contempt and scorn upon them, particularly when a major city -- one which up until recently had grandiose plans for expanding its currently inadequate rail transit system, including adding an actual trolley system downtown -- comes up with the idea of using these obscenities on rubber as some kind of charming sop to the populace.

JasW wrote:...trolleys run on rails in the street via electricity from overhead wires.

Not really. Many cities, including my own, run trackless trolleys, which are legally trolleys and not motor vehicles.