Choo Choo U

mrsadventure wrote:The school has still provided the service to the student and still has to pay for the facility, advertising, instructors, etc. The railroad doesnt give us a refund.

I originally hired out on CSX back in February of 2000. I had to attend one of these "schools" also. I was in the class for Grand Rapids, MI, and had to pay Owens Community College in Toledo, OH for the class, which was held there. My cost was around $5000 for the school, along with 5 weeks of hotel time that I had to foot the bill for because Grand Rapids (which at that time I was living 70 miles north of GR anyway) is too far for a daily commute to Toledo.

Pay for the facility? How many people have you had come through this program? I don't care if they graduated or not, because graduation day or not, you made $4500 per head. Instructors? I understand that also. Why are you paying an instructor $10,000 a month (I thought I remember seeing that in an earlier post, I could be wrong)? Are these your own instructors, or are they "rent an instructor" from your class 1 railroad like mine was?

I agree with almost everyone here, that is too much money to spend on "possibly" getting a job with a CERTIFICATE, not a degree, mind you, that is useless anywhere else. An associate's, bachelor's , and masters degree will get you a job almost anywhere just because its a degree, even if its in a non related field, which I think is a bunch of crap. I got beat out for a yardmaster's position by a guy who had a degree in visual communication, but knew nothing about railroad operations....can you say that that is perfectly JUST OK in your mind?

"Also just so you know, even if a student is not hired by the hiring railroad, we give them lists of shortline RR's within a 5 state region that they may get hired into and I personally write them a recommendation letter."

I found it funny that miss-adventure wrote that given the high caliber of her students, the physical abilities of her students, and the ability to pass the background check, testing, etc., etc., etc....she is willing to personally write a recommendation to a carrier for a student that a Class 1 did not pick up.

Hmmm, seems to me that if a Class 1 did not see fit to hire the student, there must be a reason. However, I sure her background and work experience is highly regarded within the industry and those "golden letters" she writes has significant weight in hiring said student.

Dream big, dream often, but don't pay out the nose for it.

Hey Brakey, you did get a job right? I guarantee if this hiring railroad did direct hire, and if you did not know anyone who worked for that Class 1 you wouldnt even be where you are now. I do not know the faciity at Owens, however, I do know that they were banned from the class 1 from doing any more training, so their facility may not have been up to par. I pay $9,000 per month for a new facility that I renovated so that my students would have a nice play to study and learn for the 5 weeks that they are here. I have 13 instructors and yes are paid approx. $8,000 per 5 weeks because that is the going rate to keep a quality instructor.

Regardless, I will stop posting, because MR. Schlub you are rude. There are several shortlines that take students not hired by Class 1. Shortlines do not give strength tests, therefore, they dont care if the student did not pass the strength test. Its not like I write a recommendation letter for someone who failed a drug test. Shortlines do not pay as much as Class 1 which is probably the reason that they are happy to get someone that has gone through the training.

Here is how I see it, now its my turn to be rude I guess. Those of you who have issues with these schools and new hires getting a little bit of knowledge before they come on the property are more than likely people who would never go to college anyway or people who dont even see the benefit of continuing an education past high school! I give up. My purpose from these posts was to try and let you see that we are only here because the Class 1 wanted this service, we provide it to them and we try to do it the best we can and the most painless for the student. I wanted opinion from you on what we could do better to prepare these new hires, not get degraded by people like Mr. Peacemaker. The schools did not set the price on the education, the Class 1 did. We just try to take that money and put it back into the facility. I give up because no matter what I say, those of you who disagree will disagree. Especially those of you who never attended one of the schools. You would be surprised how many of our students keep in contact with us and thank us for getting them better prepared. I give up and wont be back. Some of you guys are just like all of them, money hungry and never satisfied unless your complaining!

"Here is how I see it, now its my turn to be rude I guess. Those of you who have issues with these schools and new hires getting a little bit of knowledge before they come on the property are more than likely people who would never go to college anyway or people who dont even see the benefit of continuing an education past high school! "

Here we go again with your idiotic generalizations. I figured you might comprehend the straight forward criticism being explained in black and white by brother Mr_Peacemaker. Guess not.

Well I am convinced of one thing you are top notch management material if the teaching thing don't pan out.

Mrsadventure wrote: "Those of you who have issues with these schools and new hires getting a little bit of knowledge before they come on the property are more than likely people who would never go to college anyway or people who dont even see the benefit of continuing an education past high school! I give up. My purpose from these posts was to try and let you see that we are only here because the Class 1 wanted this service, we provide it to them and we try to do it the best we can and the most painless for the student. I wanted opinion from you on what we could do better to prepare these new hires, not get degraded by people like Mr. Peacemaker."

Your "choo-choo u" is not an education past high school. College is. Are you teaching chemistry 302, or algebra 101? Until you do, don't put your "school" in the same category as colleges. I myself do have a 4 year degree in agronomy. I wanted something different in my life so I hired on the railroad. For you to consider your 3 week training an "education past high school" is a joke, and an insult to yourself and any other person that put the time into a real degree, either 2 years, 4 years, or more.

If someone pays for a crash course in skydiving or scuba-diving, are they continuing an "education past high school"? That's basically what your course is.

If you wanted opinions on what you could do to make your course better, then ask that. All you did was brag about your course and tell us how safety issues have gone down as a result of these schools.

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Here is how I see it, now its my turn to be rude I guess. Those of you who have issues with these schools and new hires getting a little bit of knowledge before they come on the property are more than likely people who would never go to college anyway or people who dont even see the benefit of continuing an education past high school! I give up. My purpose from these posts was to try and let you see that we are only here because the Class 1 wanted this service, we provide it to them and we try to do it the best we can and the most painless for the student. I wanted opinion from you on what we could do better to prepare these new hires, not get degraded by people like Mr. Peacemaker. The schools did not set the price on the education, the Class 1 did. We just try to take that money and put it back into the facility. I give up because no matter what I say, those of you who disagree will disagree. Especially those of you who never attended one of the schools. You would be surprised how many of our students keep in contact with us and thank us for getting them better prepared. I give up and wont be back. Some of you guys are just like all of them, money hungry and never satisfied unless your complaining!

You are not being rude; the posters harassing you are imposters used to someone else paying the freight bill for them. They can not relate to hard working people that do and will continue to invest time and money in them selves to get ahead in life. A true test of a person’s ability is having the confidence to do go out and seek career they want and are not afraid of tough hours, hard work and the possibility of having to suffer setbacks and possible failure. For decades truckers have had the option of going to trucking school and it costs the student $4000 before they get commercial license. Even that isn’t a quick ticket to a job the next day. Most top paying employers want 2 years minimum of over the road experience. The shipping industry has maritime schools too.

Several years ago AMDG was paying their most experienced instructors around $250.00/day, and IIRC, a per diem of $50.00. This $10,000.00/month figure is just another case of someone attempting to blow smoke up our brake-pipes!!
$300.00/day may seem like they're well compensated. Think again! As contract employees they're required to cover the cost of any health insurance. If you're middle age and married, said costs can easily amount to $600-800.00/month. Puts quite a sizable dent in what appears to be...."good change".

Well my post wasn't meaning to harass, but sorry, I must fit into the unedukaterred peoples that dunno how to get a hed in life. That be my excyouse.

I try to keep the food on the table for the family, though, but I don't have a degree, so poo on me.

mrsadventure, I beg to differ there are quite a few railroaders especially oldheads who have college degrees. I see a lot of new hires who were once white collar workers who lost jobs due to outsourcing. When we hired out in the '70s and '80s the railroads were the highest paid blue collar jobs in the country. Since downsizing in 1985 and 1993 the quality of training has deminished and these schools are a big part of the problem. It gives a false sense of security knowing rules and knowing how to use them are two separate issues. If these schools worked then why as an engineer do I end up as the trainer once their so-called qualified? It forced upon me because I need to protect myself from inexperienced conductors screwing things up which could affect my carreer. The only true training is OJT which could be incorporated with bi-weekly meetings to instruct on proper utilization of the rules. The class 1's think your school has done their work for them so a new hire gets approxamiately 12-16 weeks OJT and thrown out ill trained. We once had a rule book that could fit in your back pocket today I carry 12 different books because everytime someone screws up they make a new rule it's constantly changing and it's created discention amonst the ranks. In my opinion these schools are extortion to possibly get a railroad job with no gauentees of anything.

Just as COEN77 said, I can think of a trainman who is a Juris Doctor, another with college and military time behind him, and several others with college degrees who post regularly on this board.

I can think of one guy in my terminal with a masters in geological sciences.

And what is this about no insider contacts-no job? I've never met a railroader in my life, and I direct hired on, to boot.

Why come here to harass us anyhow? Bored at work? One student have a nasty comment about how we pick on the university programs?
Honestly, I'm interested.

zeppelin2112 wrote:I can think of one guy in my terminal with a masters in geological sciences.

And what is this about no insider contacts-no job? I've never met a railroader in my life, and I direct hired on, to boot.

Why come here to harass us anyhow? Bored at work? One student have a nasty comment about how we pick on the university programs?
Honestly, I'm interested.

I was actually living in Atlanta, GA when I decided to blindly apply on-line with the UP for a trainman position in Ogden. I knew nobody. Flew on Delta to SLC, interviewed, flew back to ATL, and was called by the UP a few days later.

Same thing happened at Amtrak a few years later. I knew I wanted to leave the UP, so I submitted an application on-line for a Re-Entry Engineer position in SLC, and the next thing I know Amtrak HR in Oakland is calling me. Again, I knew nobody at Amtrak and was actually living in Las Vegas at the time.

Kind of blows her theory about having to know someone in order to get on-board.

Personally I started with a scab shortline and didn't know anyone or jack about the RR before hiring. I hired while I was on summer break in my 2nd year of college. I used the summer shortline experience to get my foot in the door on a class 2 RR. Now I hog for a class 1.

The best part is I didn't pay anything out of my pocket. They paid me.

BigWeb wrote:Mrsadventure wrote: "Those of you who have issues with these schools and new hires getting a little bit of knowledge before they come on the property are more than likely people who would never go to college anyway or people who dont even see the benefit of continuing an education past high school! I give up. My purpose from these posts was to try and let you see that we are only here because the Class 1 wanted this service, we provide it to them and we try to do it the best we can and the most painless for the student. I wanted opinion from you on what we could do better to prepare these new hires, not get degraded by people like Mr. Peacemaker."

Your "choo-choo u" is not an education past high school. College is. Are you teaching chemistry 302, or algebra 101? Until you do, don't put your "school" in the same category as colleges. I myself do have a 4 year degree in agronomy. I wanted something different in my life so I hired on the railroad. For you to consider your 3 week training an "education past high school" is a joke, and an insult to yourself and any other person that put the time into a real degree, either 2 years, 4 years, or more.

If someone pays for a crash course in skydiving or scuba-diving, are they continuing an "education past high school"? That's basically what your course is.

If you wanted opinions on what you could do to make your course better, then ask that. All you did was brag about your course and tell us how safety issues have gone down as a result of these schools.

BigWeb has it exactly right. Railroad training classes are not college; they have far, far different aims...and are not marketable in the way college degrees are.

A person completing college, with a Bachelor's in a certain discipline...is supposed to be (not always is) "educated," with exposure to history, philosophy, the arts, at least one foreign language (and with it, the culture and way of thinking). He specialized in a field - finance, the sciences, history or philosophy or education.

Supposedly he's ready to join the ranks of decision-makers and leaders.

Railroad training is VOCATIONAL TRAINING. Not even; it's not akin to machinist's school or court reporting. It's the sort of preparation EVERY industry needs to do with their new people....

...except the railroad industry is sloughing it off onto the employees themselves (or state employment/training programs) to pay for.

What it amounts to is the employee buying his job.

Would some of these guys have gotten their jobs without it? No. In years past, you had to have a father or brother working for the carrier or know the Local Chairman to get offered a job. Today, it's a matter of who's motivated enough to actually fork over the considerable money to buy their slot. That's how the carriers screen out candidates...

...and it sucks. It's a free country, and they can run their personnel programs as they choose; but it's exploitative of desperate candidates.

And it doesn't always get the best men. People with options use them and find other work. Persons who meet qualifications to get JTPA stipends - the down-and-out, who frequently turn out to be feckless and irresponsible - get their school, get hired.

Jayjay1213 wrote:
As for NS, have you ever worked for them? So you are just believing the urban legends? In my experience with them, they seem to get more pissed if you don't report the injury.

Yo got THAT right, sir! I once was stung by a bee, and I showed it to another clerk immediately after. I didn't really think that much of it & I didn't report it it was minor. The Terminal Agent found it out and called me AT HOME the next day just a cussin'!!! YOU durn well better report ANY injury on NS, or you better make sure they don't find it out---even if it is little bee sting!

GF