WNYP independent of LAL?

Les, you do realize that you can unsubscribe from a thread right?

If the same people that are asking for this thread to be locked, when no wrong has been committed, would simply move on, there would be no problem is all I am saying. I see no reason to lock it (this doesn't mean you should try to get it locked, because other actions could potentially come straight to you instead.) If every thread got locked after the topic had been discussed with no rules broken, this forum would not work. That is not how we generally do business here my friends. Upwards and onwards!

Thanks.

It doesn't matter to me if you lock it, and start a new discussion, or leave it alone. But its clearly a topic of iterest. It will be interesting to watch the changes and see what hapens now. And I'm sure there will be some changes. Maybe not the giant changes some imagine (and maybe so) but enough to make it worth keeping an eye on. Time will tell. But it will be interesting to watch. I for one am curious to see what happens now. I suspect most others are too.

RS

Not to sound selfish here, but I'm hoping with whatever happens(d), the status of being rail fan friendly won't be affected??? Such as signing the release to take photos/or just being on/near their property, etc.

And hopefully this'll be the last I have to add to this thread.......

chris

I'm hoping they get rid of the Alco's with EMD power painted PC black ! Hahaha!!

OMG!!! Heaven forbid people on this forum have a difference of opinion and the thread be locked!!! Someone complains, is offended and the entertainment ends. quite similar to going to a union meeting. I pray that the line reverts back to the NS. People complain about jobs in the area but I heard NOTHING when the men in Olean lost their jobs with the NS when the WNYP took over. The service they proivde is a joke compared to what was once was. Anyone that says otherwise obviously isn't qualified on the line, or wasn't there when the power went out in Eldred. I'm pulling for the Blabey camp. I said what I needed to. Lock the thread if you must.......

Why would NS want it back?

Anchorman wrote:The service they proivde is a joke compared to what was once was.

I'd be most interested in knowing why you think the service is bad. Doesn't WNY&P provide almost daily service on the BL? What did NS do that WNY&P isn't doing?

RS

Anchorman,

Whoever you may be, perhaps you did not understand me the first few times. I'm not locking this thread to appease anyone. I saw no reason to then and I see no reason to now. You guys are certainly pushing the right buttons though. It's almost as if some of you crave being forced to shut up.

As far as I know, the men and women(?) in Olean that "lost" their jobs didn't get removed from the NS payroll and instead were given options to transfer elsewhere on the NS system. Heck, I am sure some of them could have hired out with the WNYP if they so desired. It sounds to me like you were one of these guys if you are a railroader at all. It amazes me that you suggest NS provided better service on this line. If this were the case, why was the NS willing to let it go? It would seem that they would hold onto the ventures that were making them money and that they were happy with instead of what actually happened here. It appears to me that the NS looked forward, saw nothing but more dark clouds and decided to cut losses in a sense and hand it over to the up and coming WNYP even if it is only for a decade or so at a time.

RS-3,

NS could use the WNYP route for detours the moment that bridge at Letchworth, becomes unsafe. Either that or some convoluted and expensinve routing over CSX.

I don't understand the "lack of acceptable service by the WNY&P" inference either.

Hey, I'm not huge on what the WNY&P has accomplished thus far on either the east/west or north/south lines, BUT let's be honest here, The NS was servicing *drum roll please* one crummy industry in Olean--- just one. And that's a former customer of the Pittsburg, Shawmut & Northern.

Every other customer that was handled by CR & NS has quit using rail.

So at least in the Olean area there hasn't been much for the WNY&P to "screw-up" quite honestly-- the whole area, both the north/south and east/west lines were treated like red-headed step children over the last 30 years.

Like Luther just explained, if the line was profitable to NS, why would they give it up? Apparently, they thought it wasnt, so they Sold it off, but that doesnt mean NS still doesnt get trackage rights. I've seen videos of NS trains detouring over the WNYP on youtube. So, why are we even complaining. Seems pointless, especially in a thread like this..
[joke]Nessman.. No! You can't! Not the PC EMDs!! The dreaded EMDs wont be back! ALCos will rule those rails for good! haha[/joke]
Cheers.
Sean

Luther Brefo wrote:Anchorman,

Whoever you may be, perhaps you did not understand me the first few times. I'm not locking this thread to appease anyone. I saw no reason to then and I see no reason to now. You guys are certainly pushing the right buttons though. It's almost as if some of you crave being forced to shut up.

As far as I know, the men and women(?) in Olean that "lost" their jobs didn't get removed from the NS payroll and instead were given options to transfer elsewhere on the NS system. Heck, I am sure some of them could have hired out with the WNYP if they so desired. It sounds to me like you were one of these guys if you are a railroader at all. It amazes me that you suggest NS provided better service on this line. If this were the case, why was the NS willing to let it go? It would seem that they would hold onto the ventures that were making them money and that they were happy with instead of what actually happened here. It appears to me that the NS looked forward, saw nothing but more dark clouds and decided to cut losses in a sense and hand it over to the up and coming WNYP even if it is only for a decade or so at a time.

LB - kudos to keeping the lively debate alive. - also - pm sent

If you worked in a factory, and they decided to close, and you could bump within the company but to a different location, do you consider that losing your job? Some might not, but without any moving benefits or protection, I do. Of course they could've hired out with the WNYP. That was the only protection they got. Job offers that paid less with no protection and less benefits.

Yes I am a railroader(still am), and didn't work in Olean.

Service locals provide on a line has nothing to do with why NS got rid of it. Profitibility does. Still amazed? As another poster stated, Olean(DAL) tile is the only industry in Olean. In PA, you had Hawbaker, the Valley work, Pitt-Corning, and Ball Foster. Many others on the line went away for reasons I don't have the answers to(other than Granderson's burning). So from Machias to Driftwood you had 5 industries. That didn't support the stretch of railroad. The massive wreck on Keating Summit didn't help either. The H19 out of Olean did all these industries minimum of 3 days a week(in under 12 hours), with the H5w/H4w spotting Turtle Point. The reason you see the WNYP out there everyday is the BP/Driftwood interchange and recrews. Must be fun doubling and tripling the hill. Taking 2-3 crews to spot the Valley. As I'm sure you know, the NS still dispatches the line, and quite often I ask them how they're doing. It's gotten better as the crews get more qualified, but still not great.

I know most of you think that a shortline must provide better service than the big, mean class 1, but it's not always the case. Just because they have Alco's doesn't mean they know what they're doing. I really doubt NS will get the line back. I'll bet I never can run a real train down the Summit again, but don't sit there and type how great the world is when you have no idea about the line or what's really going on. I apologize if I came off rudely, but I'd be willing to bet WNYP won't get much more business on the line. Not much industry on it, unnless something moves in although I do know for sure their marketing dept. has GOT to be more aggressive than NS's.

I'm going to say a few things once.

We've all made our points. I don't see any reason to lock the thread. Luther doesn't see any reason to lock the thread. Stop debating the merits of locks already, please. If you want to continue to speculate and wonder about the recent drama and what it means to you, feel free. I enjoy a lively conversation, but let's make sure we stick to facts. Anyone is free to start a new thread to discuss any new developments regarding the LAL family of operations. Just remember that no matter what you do, you're talking about real people and their livelihood. What's fun and pictures to you is someone else's bread and rent check.

Carry on.

-otto-

Well, after this last anchorman post, I thought I should chime in. (And no, not Otto's post.)

I find it ridiculous when some of the "union" guys chime in from time to time, on this board or others, and lament when one of these shortlines take over some former union domain. It's the classic case of "I want my cake and I want to eat it too." The first post by anchorman alone helped illustrate the point as he simultaneously complained about a typical union meeting while complaining that the line can't be union. Intruiging.

Regarding this most recent post, I can't in any way argue about the WNYP paying what a union line does. It doesn't. I suspect it never will. But complaining that the workers didn't have any protection is absurd. Really, is there any job that involves more movement than a railroad job? When you get bumped off a yard job and have to hit the road, or the extra board, and perhaps even change your terminal to keep the job that you want, do you complain then about it? Sure. But it's the life. To have that protection in other times, and then complain about it here...interesting.

Separately, a line like the WNYP has a different benefit. There are several men running the line the last I knew that make their home along the line, and before the line opened, had to travel great distances to get to work. Now, they are on the WNYP. Is that perfect? No. But it matters greatly to those men that I liked being around, men who were members of one or the other union. One man (you know him if you know the NS crews) said he'll finally get to retire from home...after being on the road for 30 years.

I can't tell you that the service is good or otherwise. I do know about the problems with power on the line, and lease rates, and gallons per hour of the SD-45s, things like that. I hope it makes money. I'm not sure it will.

But let's not suddenly play the union card. At a time when union brothers and sisters are getting hammered left and right, and union ranks are thinning each day, a railroad job is one of the safest around. You might have to move. But, then, you always did.

Dave Becker

Pablo - I definitely see your point, but you misinterpreted my comparison. Maybe I never should've brought up the meeting line, but at the time it struck me similar. I'm not a chest pumping union man, and I don't despise the WNYP because they're not union. Don't go assuming you know how I think or what went on during the transaction. Obviously I have a differing opinion on this than you and that's what makes the forums interesting. BTW - pm sent.

With the recent changes, I guess I would consider going back to work for the WNYP. Up until last week it was at the bottom of my list, but has moved up dramatically since. Good luck to all involved, I really hope things work out for the best.

This post has been deleted by Alcoman because of slanderous material it contained.