Amtrak Diner and Food Service Discussion

Those here who favor full service "dining" aboard will love this clip taken from a Washington Post article summarizing the provisions within IIJA21:

And, perhaps a favorite of avid train riders such as Biden, there is a line in the bill encouraging more food and beverage services on Amtrak routes, even if revenue does not break even.

When can those holding Amtrak purse strings kindly accept Amtrak is in the transportarion business and not the hospitality?

Was going to say - the new reauthorization officially kills the Mica provision.

The question now is... will it kill Flex Dining?

Most likely it'll halt putting it on the double-overnight LD routes and keep it on the regular overnights and the Acela's. It may expand to day-trip lines, especially the Pennsylvanian that leaves early and gets in late.

Flex was put on the double night trains already during the pandemic and they took it off this summer and went back to full dining - I don’t think there was any plan to do that again as they have acknowledged the customer base is a bit different on those select routes and the dining car is more crucial to that experience. Flex was taken off the Acela in August and it’s back to something similar to what it had pre-pandemic. The Acela meals are from a new vendor. There have been rumors about them expanding the new full service dining product out west to possibly the Silvers but I suspect (and predict) they aren’t going to go back to full service dining across the board on all the routes. An Amtrak manager at one point stated they are evaluating the Acela offering and are talking to that vendor to possibly look at revamping the offering on the single overnighters.

Better food attracts more riders - kind of like a lost leader in a supermarket. And if done well and efficiently, it probably shouldn't lose money. One Amtrak experiment I read about had dining cars open much longer hours, letting passengers eat when they wanted. There's more to it than that, but I believe that it made money.

Collecting more revenues from increased sales does not necessarily mean making more profits. To keep the dinning car or cafe car open longer, additional staffing will be needed. More staff means more costs, whcih are significantly higher percentage wise because of the very low crew numbers Amtrak uses.

One cafe attendant to two doubles 100% the crew costs.
Two dinning crew to three adds 50% to the crew costs.
Three dinning crew to four adds 25% to the crew costs.
four dinning crew to five adds 20% to the crew costs.
The fewer the crew aboard the train initially means just adding one more crew to the train adds significantly higher crew costs.

Reflect upon the number of hours the crew operating the dinning and cafe cars work as is.
Dinner every night from 5 pm to 9 pm (4 hours with paying customers plus 1 hour total pre and post paying customers prepping and cleaning up)
Breakfast every morning 7 am to 9 am (2 hours with paying customers plus 1 hour total pre and post paying customers prepping and cleaning up)
That's already 7 hours every day, and we have not accounted for lunch and loading and off loading food to the train from the commissaries yet.
Therefore, any additional open for business times on the train will require more crew, or significant overtime costs in labor. That is not going to happen!

Unlike a restaurant stationary at a location in your home town, the different crew shifts can go home every night. On a long distance train, the crew remains on the train and can not go home every night.

It gets frustrating to have to keep reminding people who posts ideas in these forums the different operating realities Amtrak experiences than the rest of the businesses in America. Entitled people, often called Karens at Reddit, never look at their proposals from the other person's point of view. They treat all staff as slaves and not as fellow human beings. What a shame.

There's a few questions I have, but I am reminded of the following article in the Baltimore City Paper. It's a behind-the-scenes look at one of Baltimore's busiest kitchens: Yes, Chef: Two nights of the kitchen life at The Brewer's Art

With that in mind, my questions. I'm going to use the Southwest Chief as a base. From Chicago to LA, it's a dinner, breakfast, lunch, dinner, then maybe breakfast. LA to Chicago, dinner, breakfast, lunch, dinner, breakfast, lunch.

• What is the pre-pandemic consist?
• How many crew is used on the train in total?
• Does the crew have shifts (day/evening/overnight)?

I think once we know some operational details, we can truly say if more crew is needed.

On a tangent, I kinda wonder if there has to be a staff member awake while passengers are asleep while the train is on the move. I'm assuming engineers are swapped over every 8 hours or so (FRA regulations I assume).

electricron wrote: ↑Sun Nov 07, 2021 9:52 am Collecting more revenues from increased sales does not necessarily mean making more profits. To keep the dinning car or cafe car open longer, additional staffing will be needed. More staff means more costs, whcih are significantly higher percentage wise because of the very low crew numbers Amtrak uses.

One cafe attendant to two doubles 100% the crew costs.
Two dinning crew to three adds 50% to the crew costs.
Three dinning crew to four adds 25% to the crew costs.
four dinning crew to five adds 20% to the crew costs.
The fewer the crew aboard the train initially means just adding one more crew to the train adds significantly higher crew costs.

Reflect upon the number of hours the crew operating the dinning and cafe cars work as is.
Dinner every night from 5 pm to 9 pm (4 hours with paying customers plus 1 hour total pre and post paying customers prepping and cleaning up)
Breakfast every morning 7 am to 9 am (2 hours with paying customers plus 1 hour total pre and post paying customers prepping and cleaning up)
That's already 7 hours every day, and we have not accounted for lunch and loading and off loading food to the train from the commissaries yet.
Therefore, any additional open for business times on the train will require more crew, or significant overtime costs in labor. That is not going to happen!

Unlike a restaurant stationary at a location in your home town, the different crew shifts can go home every night. On a long distance train, the crew remains on the train and can not go home every night.

It gets frustrating to have to keep reminding people who posts ideas in these forums the different operating realities Amtrak experiences than the rest of the businesses in America. Entitled people, often called Karens at Reddit, never look at their proposals from the other person's point of view. They treat all staff as slaves and not as fellow human beings. What a shame.

A lot more people eating, increased booze sales help. Better food with better hours attracts more passengers and more revenue. Plus, it's my understanding that they tried this one one route for a while and found it profitable. Yes, that's not easy to do.

photobug56 wrote: ↑Sun Nov 07, 2021 10:51 pm A lot more people eating, increased booze sales help. Better food with better hours attracts more passengers and more revenue. Plus, it's my understanding that they tried this one one route for a while and found it profitable. Yes, that's not easy to do.

But will there really be more passengers paying more to dine on Amtrak trains if the hours were increased?
The Auto Train is Amtrak's largest train by capacity, usually has 500 passengers.
Acela trains are Amtrak's fastest trains on its busiest corridor, usually has 300 passengers.
Increasing hours of service will require additional staff, yet where will you try squeezing more passengers aboard any of the the trains?
Name the train where increasing food service hours actually increased profits? I ask because I can not find this experiment anywhere, so I need your help. Repeating an undocumented fact a hundred, thousand, million, or a billion times does not make it true.

STrRedWolf wrote: ↑Sun Nov 07, 2021 10:36 am There's a few questions I have, but I am reminded of the following article in the Baltimore City Paper. It's a behind-the-scenes look at one of Baltimore's busiest kitchens: Yes, Chef: Two nights of the kitchen life at The Brewer's Art

With that in mind, my questions. I'm going to use the Southwest Chief as a base. From Chicago to LA, it's a dinner, breakfast, lunch, dinner, then maybe breakfast. LA to Chicago, dinner, breakfast, lunch, dinner, breakfast, lunch.

• What is the pre-pandemic consist?
• How many crew is used on the train in total?
• Does the crew have shifts (day/evening/overnight)?

I think once we know some operational details, we can truly say if more crew is needed.

On a tangent, I kinda wonder if there has to be a staff member awake while passengers are asleep while the train is on the move. I'm assuming engineers are swapped over every 8 hours or so (FRA regulations I assume).

On the "train and engine service" side, they carry an engineer, a conductor and an assistant conductor. FRA mandates 12 hours maximum hours on duty, but those hours can include prep work at the terminal. Amtrak's union contract says 2 engineers must be assigned to a route segment that exceeds 6 hours between recrews. So sometimes engineers and conductors change at different bases to avoid a second engineer and sometimes they run with a second engineer. Some Amtrak crew bases like the Fort Madison engineer base are strictly "away" bases. FRA rules require crew rest "away from the noise of the railroad" so hotels or company lodging, not sleeping cars.

The onboard service staff remain with the train for the duration.
The lounge car gets a lead service attendant. He/she gets to sleep when the lounge is closed so roughly 11 pm to 6AM.
A fully staffed dining car has a chef, assistant, waiter and a lead service attendant who signs for the food at the commissary and handles the cash. The assistant and the waiter are members of the "service attendant" craft.
Each sleeper gets a car attendant and I believe each coach or every other coach is assigned a car attendant who assign seats and hand out pillows. Only the conductors check tickets. At least one coach attendant and one sleeper attendant is awake during the overnight as passengers do come and go at stops during the overnight.

electricron wrote: ↑Mon Nov 08, 2021 12:14 am
Three dinning crew to four adds 25% to the crew costs.
four dinning crew to five adds 20% to the crew costs.
...
But will there really be more passengers paying more to dine on Amtrak trains if the hours were increased?

(please check your math and spelling. )

Yes, I do believe that a combination of longer hours, opening dining car to coach passengers (early/late/space available basis) and improving the quality of food offerings could boost both the passenger experience and the bottom line. Existing coach passengers will spend more. And an improved food/beverage experience could drive ridership (indirectly, over time.)

As Mr. GBN often notes, there is a significant 'experiential' component to train travel, especially LD. Amtrak should milk it by getting their captive customers to tap their credit cards even more often for nice food&beverage.

electricron wrote: ↑Mon Nov 08, 2021 12:14 am

photobug56 wrote: ↑Sun Nov 07, 2021 10:51 pm A lot more people eating, increased booze sales help. Better food with better hours attracts more passengers and more revenue. Plus, it's my understanding that they tried this one one route for a while and found it profitable. Yes, that's not easy to do.

But will there really be more passengers paying more to dine on Amtrak trains if the hours were increased?
The Auto Train is Amtrak's largest train by capacity, usually has 500 passengers.
Acela trains are Amtrak's fastest trains on its busiest corridor, usually has 300 passengers.
Increasing hours of service will require additional staff, yet where will you try squeezing more passengers aboard any of the the trains?
Name the train where increasing food service hours actually increased profits? I ask because I can not find this experiment anywhere, so I need your help. Repeating an undocumented fact a hundred, thousand, million, or a billion times does not make it true.

I don't remember details of the experiment but it has been discussed on these boards.

As to Acela, let's see. Train leaves NYP. Wait a bit, head to cafe car. No one's home. Try later, finally signs of human life - mainly an already long line waiting for it to open. Half an hour later, finally it's open and you're at the front of the line where you can finally order your nuked grease with something resembling egg and other things. By this time you are already halfway to DC. Now I don't know how long it takes to get ready to start nuking the garbage they serve and opening the register. Probably not 45 minutes to an hour. The staff I encountered moved very slowly and got little done. People often gave up while waiting. Now we have heard from Amtrak workers who work Cafe cars and are not like that - it's not a matter on Acela of increasing staff.

LD trains, some staff increase, but also improvements in process.

rohr turbo wrote: ↑Mon Nov 08, 2021 12:53 am

electricron wrote: ↑Mon Nov 08, 2021 12:14 am
Three dinning crew to four adds 25% to the crew costs.
four dinning crew to five adds 20% to the crew costs.
...
But will there really be more passengers paying more to dine on Amtrak trains if the hours were increased?

(please check your math and spelling. )

Yes, I do believe that a combination of longer hours, opening dining car to coach passengers (early/late/space available basis) and improving the quality of food offerings could boost both the passenger experience and the bottom line. Existing coach passengers will spend more. And an improved food/beverage experience could drive ridership (indirectly, over time.)

As Mr. GBN often notes, there is a significant 'experiential' component to train travel, especially LD. Amtrak should milk it by getting their captive customers to tap their credit cards even more often for nice food&beverage.

It's been many years, but I rode the Silver's to / from NYP, Florida. I could easily have flown, but one of the biggest reasons I rode was to experience the dining cars. The food, the conversation, seeing the scenery while dining.

Pre pandemic, the biggest reason my family and I did not use Amtrak for NYP to Montreal was the lack of edible food on board.

electricron wrote: ↑Mon Nov 08, 2021 12:14 am Name the train where increasing food service hours actually increased profits? I ask because I can not find this experiment anywhere, so I need your help. Repeating an undocumented fact a hundred, thousand, million, or a billion times does not make it true.

Relax electricron . . . here you go:
https://www.railwayage.com/passenger/in ... f-the-fun/

bostontrainguy wrote: ↑Mon Nov 08, 2021 12:27 pm Relax electricron . . . here you go:
https://www.railwayage.com/passenger/in ... f-the-fun/

Thanks for the link about a test on a Superliner diner on a train, the Sunset Limited, that runs just 3 days a week per direction performed in 1999 when the Sunset Limited ran from Los Angeles all the way to Orlando.
At the time the Superliner diner was manned with 9 staff, and only required 2 more staff to allow 24 hours a day service, although still not 7 days a week. Superliner diners are not so well manned today. So a new test should probably be done with staffing levels common today.
Is there enough room in a Viewliner diner to staff 9 to 11 personnel?