Rail in Saudi

philipmartin wrote:Some people get around; there's no doubt of that.

I think that map is very speculative. The only line I think might get built is the one to Makkah from the coast.

The current low price of oil is causing the kingdom serious problems and investment will be discouraged.

george matthews wrote: I think that map is very speculative.

That route map is from the Wiki article on the Dammam–Riyadh Line, for what it's worth.

philipmartin wrote:

george matthews wrote: I think that map is very speculative.

That route map is from the Wiki article on the Dammam–Riyadh Line, for what it's worth.

I think that map is fantasy. It seems to include every vague proposal that has been made for railways - all of them made when the Kingdom had plenty of money.

I think the line to Makkah will be built, because the pilgrim traffic is real and presently congested. I think no other line will be built unless the oil price rises considerably. And the Kingdom is spending a lot of money on the various wars going on around it.

HAIL — One of the world’s longest railway lines will be launched in the Kingdom on Dec. 24, realizing the dream of more than two million people. The 2,750-km railway line linking Riyadh with the northern city of Gurayat is being built at a cost of SR10 billion.
http://saudigazette.com.sa/article/5171 ... i-railways" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

An interesting vanity project. The Saudis have what appears to be unlimited spare cash for this sort of thing. Two trains a day? I wonder if they will fill the seats.

George, you do seem to be pretty negative about new rail projects in most of the world...

johnthefireman wrote:George, you do seem to be pretty negative about new rail projects in most of the world...

I have spent three years in Saudi and have fairly negative feelings about the country. They have not been favourable about rail until recently. And a multi thousand mile line intending to have two trains a day is a bit bizarre, even for Saudi.

And I do think the new East African standard gauge line will prove useful. I think the metre gauge lines have outlived their usefulness. South Africa also should consider converting to standard gauge, as more suitable to a modernising country.

One of the comments quoted in the website mentions that a rail line is needed between Riyadh and Jeddah. I am sure there is unsatisfied travel demand for that route. But of course there are difficulties in construction of that route. The steep change in elevation as the route descends to sea level is certainly a problem. I have journeyed several times on the road linking Jeddah to Tai'f. I can well imagine the problems of building a modern railway up that slope.

An easier route might be from Medina to Riyadh. Travel time would be longer than a route via Taif but construction might not face the problems of a steep ascent.

HAIL — One of the world’s longest railway lines will be launched in the Kingdom on Dec. 24, realizing the dream of more than two million people. The 2,750-km railway line linking Riyadh with the northern city of Gurayat is being built at a cost of SR10 billion.

Gurayat is not a notable town. What is its interest as a destination? My feeling has been for many years that the Saudis do not want to have connections outside their frontiers. And when you consider the actual condition of all their neighbours one can understand their reluctance. Would they want a rail line to Yemen? It's in a state of complete collapse - mainly due to Saudi bombardment. And it's Shi'ite. If Yemen ever becomes peaceful again they might want a rail connection to Aden. But I don't think one should hold the breath on Yemeni recovery. I first visited Aden in 1965 when it was still a British colony. Even then there was an intimidating presence of British troops. I went again at the moment when the former British colony was about to join Yemen proper. When I went for the second time, representing the British Council, I saw the city of Aden and also some towns inland to the north. I didn't see much potential for rail transport. I did see a steam locomotive rusting in the desert outside Aden city, the only relic I saw of the former British line. I don't think there was any track. The process of reunification was already beginning while I was there - rendering the purpose of my trip pointless - but I had fitted in a visit to Nairobi so it wasn't entirely useless. Since reunification the southern part of the country has experienced civil war. I wonder if anyone wishes the British could come back?

What about connections from Saudi to Iraq? I have no wish to go there in its current condition and I doubt if anyone else does. Even less to Syria. The only neighbour they might want a rail connection to is Kuwait, which is quite a popular destination for young male Saudis, who also used to like visiting Basra - for the purpose of freely available booze and broads. Maybe Oman. I suppose one can imagine a line to Jordan, which would seem more suitable than Gurayat. It could be a useful pilgrim route.

The only rail route in the Arab world I have actually travelled on was from Basra to Baghdad. That was a couple of years before Saddam tried to invade Kuwait. It was quite a pleasant journey but I would be surprised if it is still running. I was supposed to fly from Basra but I insisted on taking the train. The Iraq train consisted of carriages made in East Germany. The carriage I travelled in was the traditional compartment type. I had a packed lunch provided by the hotel in Basra. The air conditioning was adequate.

On looking up the "city" of Quruyyat https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Qurayyat,_Saudi_Arabia I note that it is very near the frontier with Jordan, so it could be used as the basis of a rail line into Jordan, or as the terminal for pilgrims crossing the frontier. That may well be the main source of its traffic.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/SAR_North ... Arabia.png" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

I would think that a rail line to the UAE would have a lot of potential. It is on the map but just as a back burner project, it would seem.

rhallock wrote:I would think that a rail line to the UAE would have a lot of potential. It is on the map but just as a back burner project, it would seem.

I don't know what relation Saudi has with the UAE. Their relations with Qatar are bad so a connection there is unlikely. Really, my impression is that the rulers of Saudi don't want connections across the frontier and so will not build such connections, however sensible they may seem to outsiders.

My personal wish is that they would build a huge solar energy industry and phase out their oil, for the sake of preventing world climate damage. They could still sell energy but in the form of the products of solar energy rather than carbon emitting oil products. If they ever do convert to being a solar energy supplier they could have a network of electrically powered railways to replace their massively polluting road transport..

The Gulf Railway plans to connect Kuwait with Oman, along with all the nations along the way
The Emirates have already built part of their network.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gulf_Railway" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rail_tran ... b_Emirates" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

rhallock wrote:The Gulf Railway plans to connect Kuwait with Oman, along with all the nations along the way
The Emirates have already built part of their network.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gulf_Railway" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rail_tran ... b_Emirates" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

These countries like to sign declarations but whether anything will actually happen is another thing. Will the Saudis actually make a connection to Qatar? I would be surprised. I have thought such a line would be a good thing for the last 30 years so what has been preventing it? I still don't think the Saudis will bring themselves to allow it to be built.

george matthews wrote:My personal wish is that they would build a huge solar energy industry and phase out their oil, for the sake of preventing world climate damage. They could still sell energy but in the form of the products of solar energy rather than carbon emitting oil products. If they ever do convert to being a solar energy supplier they could have a network of electrically powered railways to replace their massively polluting road transport..

I know what they might do. Create synthetic-fuel plants operated by solar-energy electricity. Here is what they would do:

Pump water out of the Red Sea and/or the Persian Gulf and then electrolyze it. The resulting very salty water they would pump back into those bodies of water. Electrolysis:
H2O -> H2 + (1/2)*O2

Extract carbon dioxide from the air. That will make these synfuels carbon-neutral.

Combine them in the Fischer-Tropsch reaction to make synfuels:
CO2 + 3H2 -> (CH2) + 2H2O
where (CH2) is hydrocarbons.

The main problem with this synfuel-export strategy is that it is too easy to compete in it. Egypt, Libya, Tunisia, Algeria, and Morocco could just as easily make solar synfuels.

That's going rather far afield, but getting back to railroads, synfuels could be a good alternative to petroleum diesel fuel for diesel engines.

Yes, all those developments would work. I am sure they will happen. The Saudis, with their large financial resources, are in a position to invest in solar industries. Other countries, which also have the same solar input could also invest. Any part of the Sahara could produce and export solar energy.