Port Authority advancing PATH extension to Newark Airport

25Hz wrote:
Could you pint me to a PDF regarding that design study if such exists?

If such exists? It exists, I assure you. All 12 volumes. Its an internal PA document that I can't share.

Don31 wrote:

25Hz wrote:
Could you pint me to a PDF regarding that design study if such exists?

If such exists? It exists, I assure you. All 12 volumes. Its an internal PA document that I can't share.

I meant publicly available of course haha. What is the solution for crossing the NEC, if you're able to share?

And... A station at south street should at the very least be given the ability to be constructed even if it's at a later date.

25Hz wrote:

Don31 wrote:

25Hz wrote:
Could you pint me to a PDF regarding that design study if such exists?

If such exists? It exists, I assure you. All 12 volumes. Its an internal PA document that I can't share.

I meant publicly available of course haha. What is the solution for crossing the NEC, if you're able to share?

And... A station at south street should at the very least be given the ability to be constructed even if it's at a later date.

It depends on which alternative is chosen, but in all likelihood would be a flyover.....

If partially funded by PFCs, South Street, or any other intermediate stop, will not happen. What gets done in the future is anyone's guess however.

So even if all the station components, platform, escalators, faregates, etc. were funded out of some other means, the fact that the rest of the extension is using the passenger facility charge renders the station impossible? I can sort of understand if that's the case since the benefit of the station wouldn't necessarily be realized without the use of the PFC to create the rest of the extensions, but is there literally no means of finding a middle ground?

MattW wrote:So even if all the station components, platform, escalators, faregates, etc. were funded out of some other means, the fact that the rest of the extension is using the passenger facility charge renders the station impossible? I can sort of understand if that's the case since the benefit of the station wouldn't necessarily be realized without the use of the PFC to create the rest of the extensions, but is there literally no means of finding a middle ground?

Its my understanding that, no, if PFCs are involved in any way, there can be no intermediate station.

Don31 wrote:

MattW wrote:So even if all the station components, platform, escalators, faregates, etc. were funded out of some other means, the fact that the rest of the extension is using the passenger facility charge renders the station impossible? I can sort of understand if that's the case since the benefit of the station wouldn't necessarily be realized without the use of the PFC to create the rest of the extensions, but is there literally no means of finding a middle ground?

Its my understanding that, no, if PFCs are involved in any way, there can be no intermediate station.

If it turns out that way, it would be most unfortunate. A stop there would restore service to a long dormant station and serve a part of newark currently clogged with traffic.

25Hz wrote:If it turns out that way, it would be most unfortunate. A stop there would restore service to a long dormant station and serve a part of newark currently clogged with traffic.

Whats at South Street to generate rail traffic? Most of the people clogging that part of Newark, like most of the clogged parts of Newark, aren't people coming from or going to that part of Newark. Putting a station there isn't going to help with much of anything. And probably isn't worth spending a hundred million or so for a station.

Adirondacker wrote:

25Hz wrote:If it turns out that way, it would be most unfortunate. A stop there would restore service to a long dormant station and serve a part of newark currently clogged with traffic.

Whats at South Street to generate rail traffic? Most of the people clogging that part of Newark, like most of the clogged parts of Newark, aren't people coming from or going to that part of Newark. Putting a station there isn't going to help with much of anything. And probably isn't worth spending a hundred million or so for a station.

Having spent many a day in newark, i can assure you... a PATH station here would draw large ridership. The cost and procedure of routing the right of way down past the current bumping blocks would easily facilitate a station, probably an island station for economy of budget and space. I calculate that you could fit an 18 foot wide platform between 2 tracks, enough space for an elevator, escalator, steps, whatever. They could even sneak in space underneath for signal system equipment and whatnot. Fare control would be at street level to allow un-cluttered platform space. You could either put a full canopy over the whole thing, or one that just covers the platform.

Driving to drop someone off at newark penn is a nightmare, ad lot of people do work at the airport and so on. You ask what's at south street? Newark is there, the mostly residential part. Seems pretty obvious to me that a station in a dense residential area would be useful to those living there or visiting there.......

25Hz wrote: Having spent many a day in newark, i can assure you... a PATH station here would draw large ridership.

Having spent many of decades in Newark theres nothing there that warrants a 100 million dollar station. There's a reason why they had lousy service before they lost it decades ago. And things haven't changed a whole lot since. Except that there's fewer of them and they own more cars.

25Hz wrote: The cost and procedure of routing the right of way down past the current bumping blocks would easily facilitate a station

Over a very busy highway. That isn't going to come cheap.

25Hz wrote:Driving to drop someone off at newark penn is a nightmare

From the north driving past Penn Station to get to South Street isn't easier. Or from the south dropping someone at P4 or directly at the Newark Airport station isn't harder.

25Hz wrote:ad lot of people do work at the airport and so on.

Not many of them live near South Street or work in the Newark Airport train station. Many many of them work places that are not near Airtrain. The bus that they would use to get to the station on South Street is the bus that goes to Newark Airport. If they use one of the Market Street buses getting to Penn Station is easier than getting to South Street. If it's one of the Broad Street buses, from the north it's faster to change at Broad and Market than it is to wait for the bus going down....to the airport...

25Hz wrote:Seems pretty obvious to me that a station in a dense residential area would be useful to those living there or visiting there

It wasn't obvious when the population of Newark was twice what it is now and the car ownership rate was half of what it is now and the station was closed. I checked a 1956 Official Guide, more or less rush hour service with two trains in the middle of the day. It's wasn't terribly useful in 1956 or more trains would have stopped there. It wouldn't be any more useful today.

Dude, you're comparing PATH and newark now to PRR and newark long ago, and nowhere did i say they work at the airport rail link i said at the airport, including the cargo terminals, garages, etc etc. This isn't a NJT station, it;s a PATH station.... the train goes to wtc, not manhattam transfer or nyp.

I've floated the idea with people numerous times who work at the airport and many, many others and they want it, so.. the people have spoken. You don't work at the airport, my ex of 4 years did and still does and when i met with her for lunch etc the topic did come up a lot, since most of them use NJT to get there. She lives in bayonne, but still, people want it.

And, you keep putting this "100 million dollar station" catchphrase in..... it's as if you think it'll cost that every month or something, you have to build something there ANYWAYS to get it to the airport... once built it'll be there for generations, and no it won't be over any highway.... look at the map....... If you actually looked at a map vs not knowing what you're talking about you can see there is room between the road and track 4, and talking about "building over a road, that's expensive" um ever heard of a cantilever? I guess that is just too much rocket science for the hapless structural engineers at the PA capitol planning dept.

25Hz wrote:
I've floated the idea with people numerous times who work at the airport and many, many others and they want it, so.. the people have spoken. You don't work at the airport, my ex of 4 years did and still does and when i met with her for lunch etc the topic did come up a lot, since most of them use NJT to get there.

If you actually looked at a map vs not knowing what you're talking about you can see there is room between the road and track 4, and talking about "building over a road, that's expensive" um ever heard of a cantilever? I guess that is just too much rocket science for the hapless structural engineers at the PA capitol planning dept.

Let me get this straight, your ex-wife and other "people" are a representative sample size of the 24,000 or more who work at the airport? And most use NJT to get there? What evidence do you have to support that statement? There is a report buried in my office someplace thats an actual employee preference survey, not the anecdotal stuff you rely on. When I find it, I'll post its findings.

And if YOU knew what YOU were talking about, you would know that those "hapless PA engineers" have already designed a structure to support the roadbed.

Oh, and by the way, its "capital", not "capitol"

The bottom line is, the PA isn't going to build a station at South Street. This discussion is moot.....

Don31 wrote:Let me get this straight, your ex-wife and other "people" are a representative sample size of the 24,000 or more who work at the airport? And most use NJT to get there? What evidence do you have to support that statement? There is a report buried in my office someplace thats an actual employee preference survey, not the anecdotal stuff you rely on. When I find it, I'll post its findings.

And if YOU knew what YOU were talking about, you would know that those "hapless PA engineers" have already designed a structure to support the roadbed.

Oh, and by the way, its "capital", not "capitol"

The bottom line is, the PA isn't going to build a station at South Street. This discussion is moot.....

I was clearly being sarcastic, as the PA engineering folks are some of if not the best in the world. And sorry, my phone auto-corrected it.

Ex girlfriend, never married haha. And i would love to get the data vs my anecdotes, which i was simply using to make a point.

25Hz wrote:Dude, you're comparing PATH and newark now to PRR and newark long ago,

when there were twice as many people in Newark, there was more to do, see etc in downtown and Jersey City and they owned far fewer cars person. They didn't use it then. In 1956 Manhattan Transfer had been closed for 19 years and the people around South Street who wanted to get to Hudson Terminal or Journal Square didn't use the train from South Street to get there. They most likely got on one of those new fangled diesel buses and took the Tubes from Penn Station. They will still get on the bus that takes them where they want to go on a frequent schedule 18 hours a day. Even if there is an alluring PATH station two blocks away across McCarter Highway beckoning to them.

25Hz wrote: and nowhere did i say they work at the airport rail link i said at the airport, including the cargo terminals, garages, etc etc.

Which aren't anywhere near the railroad station tucked away off on the far west side of everything else.

25Hz wrote:I've floated the idea with people numerous times who work at the airport and many, many others and they want it, so.. the people have spoken. You don't work at the airport, my ex of 4 years did and still does and when i met with her for lunch etc the topic did come up a lot, since most of them use NJT to get there. She lives in bayonne, but still, people want it.

Which doesn't have anything to do with South Street.

They are lying to you. There's a perfectly good train going to the airport now. They don't use it, Having a PATH logo on the side the train isn't going to make them suddenly get the urge either.

25Hz wrote:And, you keep putting this "100 million dollar station" catchphrase in..... it's as if you think it'll cost that every month or something, you have to build something there ANYWAYS to get it to the airport

100,000,000 at 5% on 30 year bonds is 536,920 a month. Or 193,291,200 in total.

If there isn't a station they don't have to build platforms or way to get to them or shelter for the passengers and faregates. Or faregates. Or maintain it all. Or police it. Or pay the electricity bill on the lighting. Or replace the visibility strip along the edge of the platform in 20 years or...

How much money should they spend for the few hundred people a day who might, when the buses on strike, use a PATH station on South Street? Or are there plans to raze blocks and blocks around Lincoln Park and build Co-op City Newark that the rest of us don't know about?

25Hz wrote:
I was clearly being sarcastic, as the PA engineering folks are some of if not the best in the world. And sorry, my phone auto-corrected it.

Ex girlfriend, never married haha. And i would love to get the data vs my anecdotes, which i was simply using to make a point.

Sorry, it wasn't that clear, at least not to me....

You shouldn't be using anecdotal information when things have been studied for years and when an idea has been advanced through various phases of design

Don31 wrote:

25Hz wrote:
I was clearly being sarcastic, as the PA engineering folks are some of if not the best in the world. And sorry, my phone auto-corrected it.

Ex girlfriend, never married haha. And i would love to get the data vs my anecdotes, which i was simply using to make a point.

Sorry, it wasn't that clear, at least not to me....

You shouldn't be using anecdotal information when things have been studied for years and when an idea has been advanced through various phases of design

On that first point.... PANYNJ has done nothing short of top notch work in every project I'm aware of.

On the second point... Over the span of several years I often spent many hours waiting at the rail link, terminal bus stops, and inside terminal A looking out over the ramp operations to pass time... Anecdotal, yes... Insignificant, no. But as you correctly stated, studies and the like exist and data clearly supports one thing or another. In this case, data may not support a station at south street, and of course the PA cannot build a station if ridership indications are below a certain threshold, or if some other requirements removed a south street station as am option. I suppose my position then at this point, is to hope that if data changes, that provisions for a station, or at the very least not building something irreversible at that location be what ends up happening.

I'd also add thanks for your input on all of this, and for your patience with my particular way of approaching things.