PAR wants to operate ex-MMA/BAR trackage

I know they have another conductor class planned for March.

Power problems? A couple from this week that I know of, 611 fresh out of Waterville has leakage problems already. 4 pounds in 7 minutes. No problem, they set it out to lead EDRJ with kitty litter all over the walks, and oil all over the fans. 350 had a cab box failure. Causing EDPL to be set back one day as the crew sat helpless all day Tuesday. I know the 352 had a problem also, just can't remember what it was.

The MM&A lines in question were not profitable for MM&A, hence the reason for abandoning them. They do not include the mill traffic at Millinocket and Madawaska. Consensus is that any operator will require state assistance in the long term. I agree that it makes little sense for Pan Am to put their name in for operating these lines; they must have a reason though that makes sense to them.
I would also agree that in the unlikely possibility they do assume operation, service will be infrequent. I shudder to think how long it would take to get a car from Presque Isle to Millinocket!
I put my bets on Irving (aka Eastern Maine/NBSR) assuming operation.

I hear PAS hasn't run up the Conn River in a month, so what makes anyone believe that the service they'd provide up in the county would be anything short of atrocious??

Reality sucks. Due to the recent derailment west of Waterville with that NMED and its rescue power, the Bucksport line went nearly a week without regular train movements. The mill is talking about expansion and, the current scheme will add up to 250 trucks to the road in a week. Being one of the "armchair" railfans, I've followed GRS and PAR/PAS quite closely for over ten years now. It's always been the same just like Newpylong says. Trains are always getting raped of their crews, and the man power never seems to keep up. Just as the "light" seems to be getting brighter for the system, they take two steps back. Up this way, it always goes back to crew numbers and track conditions. In District 1, track conditons are just deplorable for everyday trains. I mean, 10mph on average between Waterville and Mattawamkeag on the mainline!? How can you possibly look to build on that by acquiring even MORE mileage with such an acquisition as the MMA package? PAR can't even keep up with what they have now. The guys on the road busts their asses, but there's not enough of them by any means.

Even beyond the D1 area trains can at an alarming rate over the system. Three or more crews to move a NBWA one way?! Two to cover a WANM or NMWA? That latter is 45 whole miles. Can one seriously expect PAR to bring benefits to Northern Maine? While they might look good on paper as a choice in the bidding, try experiencing their plight trackside. That scares me alone.

As for NBSR/EMRY, look at their situation. They already serve Brownville. You're talking rights to Millinocket via MMA and that's it. If MMA went out completely and PAR had a chance of direct access to Brownville, it might make a little more sense. In the current scheme of things, I'm thinking not.

Kevin and BigLou, I am glad you saw my comments as being what they were and not a questioning of anyone's opinion : )

You both make very good points in my opinion. I definitely think there has been a sort of "awakening" of a sort, if you want to call it that. I think the cash infusion from the NS was the start. They are seeing that you need to spend a little to make some. It helps to have track that moves freight.

There are a lot of big projects on the horizon. Ethanol to Revere is a done deal, regardless of what you hear. They were ready to go this fall when the Contractor had the line cleared - but there was hang ups in the permitting (no surprise). I am hearing spring time the contractor will be back in there again. The operating plan at this point is an 80 car train, 3 big NS units up front, and a pusher on the ass end being tied on around Ayer. This will help them get up over the flyover and once they clear the East Boston branch switch, the pusher will pull the train in. There is a layover facility planned of some sort for the power. Again, ANY of this could change, but as of the fall, this was the plan.

There are talks of a dedicated autorack train in the near future. There are talks of a unit grain train coming from CSXT to Rotterdam junction in the near future (NEMCO in Ayer is expanding their facilities in anticipation of getting FULL unit trains). etc.

Mechanicville is going to be huge I think... In my honest opinion - NS is seeing what type of long term traffic they can drum up out of New England. If things turn out right, I believe they are going to gobble up from Boston west.

I probably am the most positive thinker in the world when it comes to this railroad because I grew up by it and am passionate about seeing it succeed. At the same time, I know how they work, so I am careful not to drink the "kool aid" and believe everything I hear when it comes to what they want to do. I think the safest way to deal with PAR is to think positively, but believe it when you see it.

newpylong wrote:I think the safest way to deal with PAR is to think positively, but believe it when you see it.

Ding ding ding, we have a winner!

Would you mind cross-posting your ethanol/Revere comments in that thread? There are probably a few people watching that thread who would be interested in what you said.

newpylong wrote:Kevin and BigLou, I am glad you saw my comments as being what they were and not a questioning of anyone's opinion : )

You both make very good points in my opinion. I definitely think there has been a sort of "awakening" of a sort, if you want to call it that. I think the cash infusion from the NS was the start. They are seeing that you need to spend a little to make some. It helps to have track that moves freight.

I probably am the most positive thinker in the world when it comes to this railroad because I grew up by it and am passionate about seeing it succeed.

There is no doubt that PAS has made a difference, slow and steady progress. Other peoples money has done a lot for GRS/PAR in the last 10 years. Now Pan Am is going to find itself faced with reality. The original DownEaster route rebuild is 10 years old, time for regular maintenance and repair. NNERPA obviously thinks the DE is for real, I do to, now PAR is going to have to pony up and maintain the route that someone else paid to rebuild. They also are going to have to fund PAS, and pay for regular maintenance that before went undone (granted they only pay 50% of the bill on PAS, but thats 50% more than before...) The question, to me, going forward is how serious is PAR about their newly rebuilt lines.

That is also why I see them as a viable operator of the state owned lines. The state has secured 10 mill in TIGER grants to rebuild the lines, someone elses money...PAR could also win the contract to do the work on those lines, and then they would have track paid for by someone else to run on. They are slowly showing on PAS and on the DE/MBTA routes their trains will move on someone elses track. Add to that fact that they also have the most power that could easily be activated and thrown on those lines almost immediately, the deadlines are long, but some especially the 9's/7's went into the lines with minor defects. They have the means and material. All they would need is crews and, wagering a guess here, the MMA crews that will be out of a job when the new operator is chosen would welcome work, for any railroad because some work even for "the Grinch" is better than government unemployment checks that only last a few months...

And Newpy, I am still growing up by it, so I might manage to edge you out for the position of "most positive thinker."

roberttosh wrote:I hear PAS hasn't run up the Conn River in a month, so what makes anyone believe that the service they'd provide up in the county would be anything short of atrocious??

funny you should say that. They came up yesterday and went home about 25 minutes ago. I think they have been going south with far more regularity

Obviously things like the mainline track have gotten better in PAS territory and NS is forcing some new business over the PAS (autos, maybe ethanol..), but I'm not sure where you folks are hearing that the railroad is doing a better job lately? Transit times are off the charts, the tracks are still falling apart and the power continues to be wretched. You can put all the lipstick on a pig that you want, but the bottom line is the service that you provide; and the horror stories I'm hearing from customers all over both PAR & PAS are as bad as anything I ever heard during the strikes, and that is pretty bad....

newpylong wrote:Kevin and BigLou, I am glad you saw my comments as being what they were and not a questioning of anyone's opinion : )

its so nice to have a rational discussion from time to time isn't it! some people especially one line are so touchy when you disagree, not that I am disagreeing with what you say. A very good friend of mine works for PAR and he not so positive, but really wants to keep his job.

newpylong wrote: You both make very good points in my opinion. I definitely think there has been a sort of "awakening" of a sort, if you want to call it that. I think the cash infusion from the NS was the start. They are seeing that you need to spend a little to make some. It helps to have track that moves freight.

While I won't disagree that the NS deal helped I don't think it was the start they were hiring more people before that. I think we are seeing the end of an era (fink Sr) and the start of a new mentality that involves being a railroad and not a real estate company. I expanded on this some in my previous post. My personal feeling is there was little to be gained until recently by spending money on upgrades and maintenance. just look at the situation in the 1980's-1990's Mills closing, shippers dropping like flies the interstate system had finally come out of its infancy and the full force of truck competition was being felt in the 1980's . There was a reason the MEC/B&m/D&H were for sale and it's not because their current owners were raking in the dough. Other railroads were staying alive with unit train traffic, who in NE besides a few coal plants were getting unit trains ?

newpylong wrote: There are a lot of big projects on the horizon. Ethanol to Revere is a done deal, regardless of what you hear. They were ready to go this fall when the Contractor had the line cleared - but there was hang ups in the permitting (no surprise). I am hearing spring time the contractor will be back in there again. The operating plan at this point is an 80 car train, 3 big NS units up front, and a pusher on the ass end being tied on around Ayer. This will help them get up over the flyover and once they clear the East Boston branch switch, the pusher will pull the train in. There is a layover facility planned of some sort for the power. Again, ANY of this could change, but as of the fall, this was the plan.

All good news and proof that PAR is interested in being a railroad once again, they have gone from trying to deny people service to actively looking for new customers. I am sure NS has a hand in it as well, but its amazing that PAR is not playing the obstructionist roll like they did originally with the Down Easter or when the B&M ( was it big G?) lost the northern section of the CT river line.

newpylong wrote: There are talks of a dedicated autorack train in the near future. There are talks of a unit grain train coming from CSXT to Rotterdam junction in the near future (NEMCO in Ayer is expanding their facilities in anticipation of getting FULL unit trains). etc.

Again an uptick in traffic which equals a chance to make money. I don't think we can attribute all of this to NS having a magic wand, how much of this traffic was available 20 years ago ??. Do the need a dedicated auto rack because AYMO/MOAY is to big? or will there be an increase in autoracks or piggy backs making it to big?

newpylong wrote: Mechanicville is going to be huge I think... In my honest opinion - NS is seeing what type of long term traffic they can drum up out of New England. If things turn out right, I believe they are going to gobble up from Boston west.

You really think that will happen ? think the ICC would allow it ? does anybody think PAR will walk away from a profitable enterprise with out asking for an unreasonable sum of money? I am not trying to troll those are honest questions. What exactly will Mechanicville be a classification yard? I really don't know much about it.

newpylong wrote: I probably am the most positive thinker in the world when it comes to this railroad because I grew up by it and am passionate about seeing it succeed. At the same time, I know how they work, so I am careful not to drink the "kool aid" and believe everything I hear when it comes to what they want to do. I think the safest way to deal with PAR is to think positively, but believe it when you see it.

Well said and for the first time in a long time there is something to see. Where did you grow up BTW ? The B&M (actually Big G but it was still called the B&M by everybody I knew) was the only railroad I knew existed until I was 15 or so

roberttosh wrote:Obviously things like the mainline track have gotten better in PAS territory and NS is forcing some new business over the PAS (autos, maybe ethanol..), but I'm not sure where you folks are hearing that the railroad is doing a better job lately? Transit times are off the charts, the tracks are still falling apart and the power continues to be wretched. You can put all the lipstick on a pig that you want, but the bottom line is the service that you provide; and the horror stories I'm hearing from customers all over both PAR & PAS are as bad as anything I ever heard during the strikes, and that is pretty bad....

I don't think I ever said they were doing a better job. What I was trying to imply is they are trying to get in position to have the resources to do a better job, its going to take years before the new crews and new equipment are running at 100% . More power and new crews are a pretty strong indicator of their future plans.

Just to put a finer point on Tosh's earlier post: Look at the RFP and count up the number of cars that could, practically, be routed via PAR. It comes to 1,500-1,800/yr. Five loads per day. And that's assuming EVERYTHING that could be diverted, would be diverted to a PAR route. Synergies? Nope.

Well, there's got to be some way that they'd make money on this, or else they wouldn't have submitted a bid. It's as simple as that.

MEC407 wrote:Well, there's got to be some way that they'd make money on this, or else they wouldn't have submitted a bid. It's as simple as that.

Exactly! Great point.

"Well, there's got to be some way that they'd make money on this, or else they wouldn't have submitted a bid. It's as simple as that."

407, are you referring to making money off the rebuilding of the line vs its continued operation?

MMA was losing their shirt on the line running a bare-bones operation and deferring maintenance. Change of operations will bring two things: an assumed elimination in property tax, and a contractual obligation to NOT defer maintenance. The obligation for line maintenance more than trumps the benefit of no property tax. This is like the business plan from South Park's "gnome" episode:

1. Collect underpants
2. ?
3. Profit!

Just substitute "underpants" with "Buy ex-BAR." The real funny part is that two companies have already followed this business plan!