Oil trains to Perth Amboy???

You just found the only way the CP can take the oil "directly" to the refinery, it involves a barge.

Very good point!

I can't see how this could be anything more than a temporary solution to meet Bayway's needs until their rail infrastructure is built/expanded. The rail routing will inevitably be longer (and more expensive) than a direct route as it will probably take the scenic route via Montreal and head due south from there to Albany. Then there would be additional costs involved with the transload and barge expenses.

If they really do build a rail yard with unloading capacity, I'd say they will slowly change all of their routings to direct shipments in the future.

Can't speak to CP's plans, but a routing through Canada may actually be shorter from North Dakota than south through Chicago and Ohio through the U.S.
from there they can ship through Buffalo on the southern tier to Albany and transload to barges which avoids NJ congestion. I'd prefer to see the traffic on NJ rails, but from a competitiveness perspective I think they'll want to avoid relying on NS/CSX to deliver the goods, and ensure reasonable rates.

I dont see it if it is originating in North Dakota. I would say it is either temporary or they figure it never hurts to have multiple suppliers in case of supply chain disruptions...

2000 cars on the system is way more than Albany could handle anyway. If they start building a yard near the facility, we'll know what their plans are...

It could just be your basic play to not have to split the revenue... CP all the way from North Dakota to Albany, no other railroads get a cut of the business.

Two comments. First, if we assume a cycle time from N. Dakota (or Montana) to NJ and back of 2 weeks , 50 cars /day like was calculated earlier would require 700 cars in the pool. And my guess is 14 days round trip with all the loading/unloading might be a little on the short side. (the professionals here can help out!). So 2000 cars might only be good for 2 deals the size of the recent Phillips/Global deal

2nd, over on other D&H/CP boards, there is all kinds of talk about routing for oil to the northeast in general for CP, also given the twist that there is a new CEO HUnter Harrison who is going to drastically change things there. I think CP has direct access the oil fields, and one strong option besides bringing the oil to Albany or the northeast in general via all CP through Canada (coming in a Buffalo and using Southern Tier rights, or going via Montreal and then south), is just handing it off to somone else (like NS) in Chicago or thereabouts.

Only thing for sure it seems is that there will be a lot going on with oil via different routings, carriers, all rail vs part ship transload, probably changing all the time, etc...
Stay tuned a few years...

JS

since there's already discussion of the Bayway deal here- and I see the mention of trains coming over on lehigh line- if that were to happen would there be any point in actually using the "rehab'd" rahway vallery railroad from Cranford into the refinery? Or would it just be simpler to still go up into Newark and back down?

michaelk wrote:since there's already discussion of the Bayway deal here- and I see the mention of trains coming over on lehigh line- if that were to happen would there be any point in actually using the "rehab'd" rahway vallery railroad from Cranford into the refinery? Or would it just be simpler to still go up into Newark and back down?

Given the level of potential community opposition in the Roselle area (NIMBYism), i think it would be much easier to go up to Newark and back down.

Just to add a little fuel to the fire ( pun intended). Bayway ALREADY gets crude barged down from Albany. So this will be additonal traffic.

Don31 wrote:

michaelk wrote:since there's already discussion of the Bayway deal here- and I see the mention of trains coming over on lehigh line- if that were to happen would there be any point in actually using the "rehab'd" rahway vallery railroad from Cranford into the refinery? Or would it just be simpler to still go up into Newark and back down?

Given the level of potential community opposition in the Roselle area (NIMBYism), i think it would be much easier to go up to Newark and back down.

Excuse my ignorance- if the tracks are already there and usable- do the whiners (er' nimby's) have any say? I guess they will complain- but who do they complain to? And then who owns the old rahway valley railroad line from cranford to linden? Is that union county or someone else? (If union county i suppose they whine to their freeholders and then they win...)

michaelk wrote:

Don31 wrote:

michaelk wrote:since there's already discussion of the Bayway deal here- and I see the mention of trains coming over on lehigh line- if that were to happen would there be any point in actually using the "rehab'd" rahway vallery railroad from Cranford into the refinery? Or would it just be simpler to still go up into Newark and back down?

Given the level of potential community opposition in the Roselle area (NIMBYism), i think it would be much easier to go up to Newark and back down.

Excuse my ignorance- if the tracks are already there and usable- do the whiners (er' nimby's) have any say? I guess they will complain- but who do they complain to? And then who owns the old rahway valley railroad line from cranford to linden? Is that union county or someone else? (If union county i suppose they whine to their freeholders and then they win...)

The line from Cranford to Linden is the former SIRR. I believe (correct me please if I'm wrong) that its now owned by the M&E, which used state funds to rehab a portion of it. Do the locals have any say? Technically, no. But the sad reality is that they complain to local politicians (Roselle and the county) who are always looking for a reason to be seen and heard and it just snowballs from there.

Don31 wrote:

michaelk wrote:

Don31 wrote:

michaelk wrote:since there's already discussion of the Bayway deal here- and I see the mention of trains coming over on lehigh line- if that were to happen would there be any point in actually using the "rehab'd" rahway vallery railroad from Cranford into the refinery? Or would it just be simpler to still go up into Newark and back down?

Given the level of potential community opposition in the Roselle area (NIMBYism), i think it would be much easier to go up to Newark and back down.

Excuse my ignorance- if the tracks are already there and usable- do the whiners (er' nimby's) have any say? I guess they will complain- but who do they complain to? And then who owns the old rahway valley railroad line from cranford to linden? Is that union county or someone else? (If union county i suppose they whine to their freeholders and then they win...)

The line from Cranford to Linden is the former SIRR. I believe (correct me please if I'm wrong) that its now owned by the M&E, which used state funds to rehab a portion of it. Do the locals have any say? Technically, no. But the sad reality is that they complain to local politicians (Roselle and the county) who are always looking for a reason to be seen and heard and it just snowballs from there.

thanks for 'splaining. So no real say but they whine so loud the politicians freak out and make life difficult.

I'm not sure who owns that line- there's some threads in here someplace about it. But if I recall union county actually got a grant from the state to rehap the line and contracts the M&E to do it? I'm fairly sure the M&E doesn't own it. So at least back then (maybe 5 years?) the county freeholders in Union were into using that line. I wonder if that means the county owns it or someone else. I guess I'm off to read up and find out....

EDIT: dug around and found these articles from nj.com. Says NJ DOT bought the lines (SIRR from Cranford to linden and I think Rahway Valley Railroad is the cranford to summit section) in 1994. Then sometime around 2004 there were plans to have freight running again. The state paid M&E to rehab using union county as a conduit. Some mention that union county wasn't exactly into it but was 'protecting residents safety' by being involved. Says the SIRR rehab was almost complete except for crossing signals when the project was "put on hold" in 2009 due to the economy. The implication in the few nj.com articles is that M&E wanted the SIRR rehabbed to get the switching they do for bayway out to boundbrook (Via NJT RVL) for interchange with NS. But one of the articles says something like they took too long to do that so upgrades to the chemical coast and lehigh lines made it pointless.
http://www.nj.com/news/ledger/union/ind ... xml&coll=1
http://www.nj.com/independentpress/inde ... uspen.html
http://www.nj.com/cranford/index.ssf/20 ... rakes.html

the thread about SIRR (seems mostly about bayway's use of it for switching?) use by the M&E is here if anyone is looking. :
http://www.railroad.net/forums/viewtopi ... 14&t=26375
(mentions that when the rehab was close to complete the M&E uses the SIRR line to store cars even as far as almost to Cranford.)

Don31 wrote: The line from Cranford to Linden is the former SIRR. I believe (correct me please if I'm wrong) that its now owned by the M&E, which used state funds to rehab a portion of it. Do the locals have any say? Technically, no. But the sad reality is that they complain to local politicians (Roselle and the county) who are always looking for a reason to be seen and heard and it just snowballs from there.

Don,

I know its probably a long shot, but if NS/CSX ever had the need to send the oil trains via the former SIRR, where does the line come into the Lehigh Line?? Did it once connect to the RVL (NJT) at Cranford as well?? My railroad atlas shows the connection as being abandoned... Did Union County ever rehab any of the connections or no??

Thanks!

blockline4180 wrote:

Don31 wrote: The line from Cranford to Linden is the former SIRR. I believe (correct me please if I'm wrong) that its now owned by the M&E, which used state funds to rehab a portion of it. Do the locals have any say? Technically, no. But the sad reality is that they complain to local politicians (Roselle and the county) who are always looking for a reason to be seen and heard and it just snowballs from there.

Don,

I know its probably a long shot, but if NS/CSX ever had the need to send the oil trains via the former SIRR, where does the line come into the Lehigh Line?? Did it once connect to the RVL (NJT) at Cranford as well?? My railroad atlas shows the connection as being abandoned... Did Union County ever rehab any of the connections or no??

Thanks!

As a kid in the 80's riding NJT I recall the interconnection still existed at the edge of Cranford from the SIRR to the CNJ/NJT RVL. (used to be RVRR running around in that area- hence my confusion with what's what- sorry I forget what the loco's said but seem to remember well that there was RVRR caboose- hmm might have been one RVRR enginer along with maybe M&E at that time???? ) The connection to NJT was removed at some point after the late 80's I think. I didn't have a chance to go back and read the whole thread I linked above here in the forums but my recollection from when I followed it was that the interconnection was never put back in before funding to rehab the SIRR was cut circa 2009. (I edited my post above with more info) I also seem to recall mention in that thread that there was an interconnection from the lehigh line heading east going down from just before the bridge to east bound SIRR (that thread i linked above here i think has the specifics)- if i recall that connection was also removed at some point.

One look at Google Maps/Earth will show that the SIRR does not connect to the Lehigh Line, but does connect to the RVL just west of the Garden State Parkway. So this whole discussion of using the SIRR for oil trains into Bayway off of the Lehigh Line seems like a moot point to me.

In addition, the "restored" SIRR is used as pretty much a long storage track for covered hoppers at Bayway on the east end. The west end immediate to the RVL connection is also used as a covered hopper storage track. In between there is "restored" track, but these days it is covered in underbrush. Also, I believe the whole SIRR-RVRR fiasco is the reason that a few Morristown and Erie officials were indicted for fraud.