NYA lease questions.

http://www.railroad.net/forums/viewtopi ... ilit=lease

On Long Island, there will be 3 freight operators NY/NJ Rail (PA NY/NJ) at Bush Terminal area, US Rail at Brookhaven and NYA on LIRR trackage. According to the above thread, the LIRR/NYA lease is for 20 years with an option for 10 more. When the 20 years is up, if one of those other operators shows interest in the LIRR trackage rights, does LIRR have final say?

Does NYA own anything or all leased?

Well, the MTA (or successor*)/NY State would be the final arbiter of continuing the NY &A lease after the term expires - if Anacostia (or its successor) even wishes to bid again.

*Note, I am not starting any rumor that the MTA will be merged/combined/disbanded etc - just that it could happen

a&p has a window in which to indicate lease renewal 2012-2015. they need to have moved an average of 24,474 cars/year for 3 years before renewal, invested $14mil in capital , have a $3mil 'license payment on renewal and agree to a $1mil/year 'tax' ( up from $800k today). my guess is they will not renew. who would? $12 mil /year in revs, 70% operating ratio does not generate the cash to support this. 25,000 cars/year? 500/week? csxt selkirk service is already maxed out with nya 40 cars/day. mta will have to adjust their goals downward to attract anyone new. ken patrick

40 cars a day? They move a lot more than that. I believe both the trash train and regular merch max out at 120.

Does A&P's current deal include the capital fee & license payment? How steep of an increase is what the mta wants vs. what they have now?

I WASN'T CLEAR. IN ORDER TO RE-NEW, NYA MUST HAVE INVESTED $14,468,920 AT TIME OF RENEWAL NOTICE- 13 YEARS EARLIEST BUT BEFORE 18 YEARS. THE RENEWAL NEEDS $3,040,550 CASH ON RENEWAL DATE, $1,268,865/YEAR FOR THE RENEWAL 10 YEARS ( $800K NOW) AND COMMIT TO CAPITAL 50% GREATER THAN WHAT'S IN THEIR BUSINESS PLAN. THE ENTIRE CONTRACT IS UNDER 'PINELAWN, STB FILING.
CARS PER DAY I GOT FROM OAK POINT. I KNOW REGUS( VARRICK) WANTED TO INCREASE FROM 15 TO 30 BUT NYA COULD NOT ACCOMODATE. ONLY FACT IS THEY NEED TO AVERAGE 24, 474 CARS/YEAR (94/DAY) IN THE 3 YEARS PRIOR TO RENEWAL ON 3/31/2017 OR THEY CAN'T RENEW UNDER THE EXISTING CONTRACT.(P&W IS NOT MENTIONED IN THE CAR COUNT OBJECTIVE )
ON 4/1/2017, THE MTA WILL CLOSE OUT THE EXISTING RENEWAL OPTION AND OPEN UP FOR A NEW DEAL. I CAN'T BELIEVE ANYONE WOULD AGREE TO THE EXISTING CONTRACT CAR COUNTS. THE MTA LOFTY OBJECTIVES CANNOT BE SUPPORTED BY MARKET FACTS. KEN PATRICK

Hmm, a manager well versed on all things New York and Atlantic told me a few yrs back it would cost more for them to get out of the lease early than to let it run out. Stranger stuff has happened maybe that is why these improvements are occuring( Calverton, Brookhaven terminal). These 2 things finished would make it much more attractive to a potential bidder. I'd say the NYAR green would be around for another few years. They have the lease for 20 years with an option for another 10(until 2027).

Another former president said that when Bruce and A&P agreed to the LIRR's lease terms it was like the 16 year old kid going into the chevy dealer and looking at the Corvette, wanting the car so bad.

letting the lease run out might not work for brookhaven and others. if nya doesn't renew, what assurances would any customer have relative to service & pricing? i think the correct thing is for nya to state now they will not renew under the existing terms. this gives mta time to construct docs that provide assurances that no matter who wins the renewal, the existing pricing/service will be honored. i'm thinking of maspeth and paterson, nj where the railroads decided to double the car rates overnight thereby killing the moves.

lastly, ny&a should never have agreed to the mta terms. i believe the tunnel spoils of 13,600 carloads @ $515/car were enticing but at what gross profit?

ken patrick

How many customers/potential customers on Long Island have stated they would take or even reconsider rail freight in the tunnel was built?
was this tunnel part of the NYAR lease with the LIRR (1997)?

Ideally in the right state of mind, the LIRR upon the termination of the NYAR lease should do the right thing and take its' freight back. Being that it's state owned company, the freight can be state subsidized and or rates possibly more competitive then if ran by a "for profit" private company.
Just like the passenger service, reasonable rates is what has to happen to the freight in addition to the tunnel to SI/NJ being built.
NOTE: The freight tunnel should be "duel purpose" capable of use by both freight and the occasional passenger train if need arose.
Currently the MTA is not in the right mind set, neither is the railroad. I believe the state need's to crack down and take over LIRR operations independently to make both freight and passenger peacefully co exist.
Remember the LIRR's most importent thing is their (in PC terms) "valued customers", well what the hell are the users of freight service ??
they too (in PC terms) are "valued customers".

"Ideally in the right state of mind, the LIRR upon the termination of the NYAR lease should do the right thing and take its' freight back. Being that it's state owned company, the freight can be state subsidized and or rates possibly more competitive then if ran by a "for profit" private company."

In that context, would not the PA NY/NJ be the better candidate to negotiate for the lease of the LIRR trackage rights? Still be in public control and would seem to complement their plans for the Brooklyn water front by having rights to (if not out right purchase of) the Bay Ridge Branch (allow direct access to CSX & others). The rest of the trackage rights would go to either NYA or US Rail, unless they increase the size of their own NY/NJ Rail subsiduary to handle the work.

Long Island IMHO should run it's own freight. Joint Track-age rights down the Bay Ridge branch for NYNJ/LIRR operations.
Let NYNJ deal with the Brooklyn and water front and the LIRR deal with the mainline freight.
possibly consider track-age rights and qualifications between LIRR/NYNJ crews to occupy the Oak Point-Fremont Secondary and to drop off cars directly to CSX in Oak Point
This could be in the LIRR timetable a (new) General Order Zone "B".
LIRR should have never given up freight, and if it has a chance to get it back they should.
There are many options providing NYAR not resigning.
?Is it's a cost burden to CSX/CP/P&W to come to Fresh Pond, would it be more effective for LI based freight crews to haul the equipment to Oak Point as stated above?

Running freight with union employees at LIRR prevailing wages will never happen.
Why do you think LIRR got rid of freight in first place.

btw second reason was it was mandated by law.

the 'tunnel' i cite was the water tunnel from maspeth to manhatten. the 'spoils' are cited in the mta/a&p lease. it seems to me to be a $7mil inducement( less variable costs) that 'fronted' the license cost( cash flow). it makes economic and operating sense for the freight operator to interchange at oak point. if track space an issue, then at harlem river yard. all moves require run-around whether oak point or harlem river. there's lots of unused track at harlem river where the selkirk road trains can set-off & pick up. this will be increasingly important when the brookhaven stone moves starts up.a convincing argument can be made for us rail of new york to have trackage rights on the 70 mile yaphank-harlem river trackage.
as for the staten-island brooklyn freight tunnel? distribution patterns have evolved that make this a 'never' concept. contrary to propular thinking railroads are not universally cost effective. add the tunnel cost? impossible to make it work. ken patrick

The grow tunnel was a good move. I think that started in 1995 by the LIRR. NYAR ran it fom 1997 inception till 1999. I don't who got the money but those fleet of cars were shipped off via CSX to an ore operation in the midwest. Basically NYAR handled those with 4 people 2 on RS 100 and 2/3 on RS 80 at $16 something hourly at the top wage scale. If the train was 30 cars maybe around $15,000 for the move. It will be interesting to see what happens with the stone. I guess if it's rail direct to a facility they can beat the rates for stone shipped via barges to Queens and LI.

In the paper it's been mentioned that Sysco Food wants to build a warehouse at the site of the former Waldbaum's warehouse in Central Islip just east of the station. Waldbaum's had a siding until LIRR electried the Ronkonkoma branch. I wonder if they would be looking for rail service? Too bad switch is no longer in place, quite expensive to install an electric lock switch these days....

Sysco is building a warehouse on the former Waldbaum's warehouse site. I was there about 6 months ago. The project manager told me that they wanted rail service and the LIRR told them to call back when they put in the second track. I told him to call his congressman for help. They should be starting construction soon.

Workextra,

If you look at Mainline's previous post that about sums up LIRR's interest in freight service. That second track isn't anywhere being done in next capital plan 4 year budget. MTA LIRR wants no part of freight service. THE NYAR hauls around 20,000 yearly. LIRR hasn't put up those numbers since the mid 1980's. 1993 LIRR moved about 15,000 according to records most I've seen towards end of freight service before NYAR era.

A bit off course here but Jamaica Ash wanted a switch awhile back. LIRR kept putting them off. As rumor has it the people of Jamaica Ash(Westbury) walked into Jamaica or Hillside with a briefcase full of money for switch to be installed. Not too much later the General Notice went out that the switch was being put in around 1988 or so.