Now those RPI guys definitely won't talk to me...

To put it succinctly, I think you may be over reacting here. INdeed, charging money for a visit may leave a bad taste in the mouth. But what alternative would you prefer--don't visit except during open houses? Many clubs do exactly that.

I guess it all depends on whether the club schedules an adequate number of open houses or not. If they do, then this is a (somewhat poorly worded) way of getting people to visit during those times.

Most MR clubs that I'm aware of, you can't simply drop in any old time you choose--there won't be anybody there, and the club would be fools to let you in unescorted. What's so different here?

What's different is that since they're on a college campus, it is more tempting for members of the public to think that they can drop in at any time they choose--after all, they're only students, right? RPI had historically allowed that sort of drop in. Well, at some level that becomes a serious pain in the behind for people who are trying to work on the layout. If you're the only guy working that night, you just lost whatever time it is you had to work so you can babysit the visitor and make sure he doesn't inadvertently (or intentionally) damage or abscond with part of the layout.

RPI as an educational institution prides itself on working its students hard, and that kind of hobby time is something a wise student would guard jealously. There's a joke in Troy that goes something like "Other colleges have alumnia associations--we have a survivors support network." That pretty much summarizes my experiences there.

Full disclosure here--I am an RPI grad, but was never a member of the MR club, for reasons I won't go into here. Suffice it to say I am not an apologist for the Institute, the club or any of its current members. But I can see why they might choose to limit visits to fixed, scheduled times.

"Many clubs" don't allow visits? Which ones?

I'm not suggesting that RPI and other large clubs just become large open free-for-alls because I think they owe some debt to the model railroading community. What I am suggesting is that they change their attitude or the way they deliver their message before they alienate the entire hobby at large.

-otto-

Let me muddy the waters with vague comments.

I think I recall years ago in one of the multitude of articles in MR on the NEB&W there was a comment that the "student union" at RPI is not a function of the college/university/institute/whatever although related to it in some way That is, there is no funding by the institution. There is no "student activities fee" tacked on to tution bills to pay for the lightsl, heat the building, and so on.

Thus, activities operating within the union need to be self-supporting.

At least, that's my recollection of what it said. I confess I didn't pay a whole lot of attention, as hopping in the car and driving to Troy was not high on my list of things to do.

No, I'm pretty sure the Union is part of RPI... whether or not RPI grants the club a budget, I dont know. I think the "$" indicates that the Union funds the club (no explanation of symbols is given).

http://clubs.union.rpi.edu/clublist.asp ... lpha&B1=Go

-otto-

I think most clubs will allow visitors at any time club members are present, with the usual caveat that trains may not be running. For instance, once I had a visitor from the UK who wanted to see some clubs, but of course his visit didn't coincide with any open houses. I had some friends at one club, so getting in on an ordinary meeting night was no problem (but I did clear it with them beforehand). I didn't know anyone at the Pasadena club, but an e-mail to the address on their web site explaining the situation of a visitor from the UK got us an excorted tour on a non-operating meeting night (but no trains running, of course).

So I think it's more or less standard for a club to allow visitors on a regular meeting night. That's been my experience when I've traveled and stuck my head in at clubs. Obviously clearing it beforehand is essential, and other etiquette would apply -- if they're putting themselves out in any way, be there on time and so forth.

One thing puzzles me about the RPI policy in that it says hours of track cleaning are needed before operation -- but they say they won't operate for a special visit anyhow.

In Northern NJ many clubs have web sites and will usually indicate when guests can come by. Usually these are work nights and sometimes one night a month is a general meeting night which is not open to the public. Some clubs will also indicate a operating night as well. As has been said, nothing wrong with sending a email if in doubt. I notice that clubs with IRS non-profit status seem to welcome visitors more openly, I believe this is a provision for Non-profit status (mission statement or purpose), some one correct me if I'm wrong. As has been mentioned by others, the wording of the RPI is rather chilling. Why not allow for two or three nights a months for tour/viewing. I can't believe that there are so few members that at least one body could't be scheduled. But that's the beat of the drum they want to march too. Otto, I wouldn't lose to much sleep on this one, that are a lot of other clubs that will welcome you.

To play devil's advocate: compare RPI to a tourist railroad. You can visit during the regularly scheduled excursions. Some lines allow you to charter a special excursion for a special rate. Others will allow you to operate the locomotive for a special rate (or charter a caboose etc.)
The RPI club is not the local Podunk club; it's one of the best known in the country. Undoubtedly they are contacted by a large number of people who want to visit. If you want the general view of operations, visit the open house. If you want a special tour with one-on-one attention, they are asking you to pay for the privilege (albeit a little steep).
I'm sure John Armstrong gets a lot of letters from people asking for help designing layouts (gratis). I worked for a shortline that would receive numerous requests for information (and most of the time the request went w/o a SASE or thank you), not to mention railfans asking about cab rides or wandering onto the property without permission. Probably at a certain point RPI decided enough is enough, we're going to narrow down the field to serious requests.

If I visit the tourist railroad on a day they are not operating, at the very least, I know that either a) someone will be around to politely tell me they are not open for business yet and b) at least I can photograph the trains parked in the yard before I leave.

All RPI has only outlined its reasons for you NOT to visit (even John Nerich admits the page has a nasty tone). Doesn't matter if your layout is 10x25 or 100x250... Again, I'm not saying that RPI should be open all the time whenever I feel like dropping by. I of course call ahead or send emails before I visit any club (the folks at MIT were very accomodating when I visited last Decemeber, having arranged a meeting in advance)... if I send an email I expect one of two replies, "I'm sorry, but no one will be around to show you in... try again soon or visit us during our open house?" or "Sure, we'll be around. Hope you dont mind, but the trains won't be running since we're working that night." not "We can pencil you in for three weeks from now at $30 per peson, per hour..."

-otto-

Comparing a Layout to a tourist RR is a stretch. A club can easily lock it's doors to prevent non members or the public from coming in. They can also post a sign that can say how and when the public could visit. A tourist RR is an open area. We have to remember that to consider it active at all times, railroads are dangerous places. I think the whole issue is that RPI has and is handling this situation poorly. I would like to see how they would feel if they visited a club and were expected to follow rules, fees and an attitude that they seem to be presenting. Plain and simple, if you don't want visits, just say so, if you want to restrict it, fine, just don't be so money hungry and negative, this is model railroading, not a for profit enterprise.

I know of a guy in our club, who is just graduating from RPI this year. We only saw him once in a while for the past 4 years, but when we did see him we often asked him about the club. Turns out he quit the NEB&W just a few months after getting in his freshman year. He told us he was really turned off by the same attitude, especially in regards to how the outside community members and Alumni patronized the current college students in the club. Said it was basically "Neihrich's personal layout" and that you either did things his way or you were not accepted.

Case in point - the fellow I am talking about did some great work when he was in high school for our club redesigning and rebuilding parts of our module group layout. We basically let him run "carte blanche" on 8' of modules rebuilding a bland yard into a good city scene. When he got to RPI he wanted to take his kitbashing skill to the next level. He asked if he could build some buildings or certain parts of the layout that were unfinished. Instead of some constructive guidelines or coaching he got inundated with "don't do this" and "that is not prototypical" etc. Just rubbed him the wrong way. He understood that they were trying to capture a specific era and location, but I think he underestimated the strict adherence to their standards.

Its a shame but unfortunately this happens often with larger layouts, at least in my own experience. Part of it is unavoidable since often 20% of the club members do 80% of the work and therefore a sense of "ownership" is bound to develop. The RPI club is subject to this since to his credit, John Neihrich has done alot to keep the layout moving along and evolving over the years.

Remember - "He who dies with the most trains wins."
Seriously - there are plenty of good groups out there, you just have to find them.

This is something I've seen, too, and don't understand. I know the RPI club, and many others, allow cardboard mockups of buildings that will later be done in full detail. Yet in my experience, only "certain people" are allowed to build the frickin' cardboard mockups!! I guess anyone else might not build the cardboard mockup to the correct standards!

In one club, they were all bent out of shape because they didn't have photos of all four sides of the sandhouse at XYZ -- and couldn't build a model of same until they had all four sides. One guy offered to build the model with the 3 visible sides and either fudge the other side or even leave it a blank piece of cardboard. So fix it later if and when yuo find the photo of the other side. Nothing doing. Nobody could build a model of the sandhouse, not even a cardboard mockup, until they had a photo of the other side.

I think Tony Koester advocates this approach to modeling these days. Another reason MR should be looking for younger blood, I think.

I'm sorry to hear this about the RPI club, because I've said good things about it on my own web site.

I don't want to criticze the work they have accomplished, or poo-poo their high standards. I certainly wouldn't want to have someone come in and tell me how to run RITMRC (I once had an hour-long discussion with a visitor who was trying to convince us we made the wrong move to go with Nickel Silver instead of BRASS track)... but it just all seems weird to an outsider like myself.

-otto-