NJT MLV EMU Procurement

Jishnu wrote:Through all this hubbub apparently no one noticed that the particular agenda item that started this discussion was quietly dropped from the agenda during the meeting and the Board did not vote on this. It was left out for possible consideration at a later meeting, which has apparently not happened yet.

I did actually notice this, but I figured it would happen anyway, so I never brought it up.

I am sure it will happen eventually. But this piece of spanner was thrown into the works by the folks from the Lackawanna Coalition for reasons that I don't fully understand. It had nothing to do with unavailability of the funds needed, but more to do apparently with egos as far as I can tell, and of course I could be wrong.

That would be a bizarre position for the LC to take.

blockline4180 wrote:

Jishnu wrote:Through all this hubbub apparently no one noticed that the particular agenda item that started this discussion was quietly dropped from the agenda during the meeting and the Board did not vote on this. It was left out for possible consideration at a later meeting, which has apparently not happened yet.

Okay, well that just tells me that the Arrow III's will probably be working beyond 2015 then, as I don't believe the Multilevel II's will replace all the MU''s!
Better get more duct type out!! HA

,

The ML2s (at least the first order of 100) weren't supposed to replace all the MUs anyway. However, there is a slowly growing deadline of MUs. Including the 1308 which was trucked out, there are 7 OOS cars, and maybe a few more. Most of these cars have had a lot of parts removed, so their chances of running again are pretty much next to nil.

I think the MUs will be around for a few more years, probably around 5 or so, with maybe a few hanging on longer than that. But they also seem to have more than 9 lives, so who knows.

Contrary to what some folks think on here, nothing is etched in stone with the future of any of the equipment. Remember, the Arrow 1s sat for about 10 years before being rebuilt. There are a few different courses that could be taken with replacements of the MUs. NJT might decide to go back to the loco hauled consists idea and abandon the MUs and instead rebuild the Comet 3s and 4s and replace the MU trainsets with locos, especially on Hoboken side. They could get a grant for an ECO rebuild of the Geeps and that might mean no MUs either and more loco hauled trains. They could get more MLs, they could get more single level MUs, they could decide to rebuild the MUs anyway, or at least keep them running. No, I don't know anything official, just throwing various possible ideas out there.

I think a lot of the plans got mixed up with the cancellation of ARC, and the role the Dual Modes will play now and in the future, with only the current tunnels (and their steep grades and capacity constraints). I personally don't see any more DMs any time soon however, even if they are successful. If ARC was built, I think that would be a different story, but as it stands now....not so much.

I don't think ANYONE knows whats really going on right now, and even what is decided upon might change. For example, the equipment plan from 5 years ago up until 2020 i think it is, has totally changed.

But like Jishnu said, I think egos do have a lot to do with things, but hopefully common sense will prevail in the long run.

Jishnu wrote:

Fan Railer wrote:

Jishnu wrote:Through all this hubbub apparently no one noticed that the particular agenda item that started this discussion was quietly dropped from the agenda during the meeting and the Board did not vote on this. It was left out for possible consideration at a later meeting, which has apparently not happened yet.

I did actually notice this, but I figured it would happen anyway, so I never brought it up.

I am sure it will happen eventually. But this piece of spanner was thrown into the works by the folks from the Lackawanna Coalition for reasons that I don't fully understand. It had nothing to do with unavailability of the funds needed, but more to do apparently with egos as far as I can tell, and of course I could be wrong.

I inquired on the Coalition's official position on the matter, because I wasn't sure I fully recalled it either. The issue, put simply, was lack of information:

At the last (August) NJT Board mtg, Simpson stated that he was responsible for the "MPC" action item being removed from the Board agenda (subsequent to electronic release of the agenda the morning before the Board mtg), because he felt he didn't have enough information to make an informed decision.

What David Peter Alan said at the same mtg, during his public comments, was that the he agreed with Simpson's action, because the LC would also like to have better information before the action item is presented to the Board for approval.

The agenda item regarding contract to design the MLV Power Car is on the agenda again for the October Board Meeting. Looks like it might actually become official this time around, unless someone again feels that they were not informed enough about it I suppose.

For what it is worth.... the Lackawanna Coalition representatives worked diligently and got it referred back to Capital Programs.

Jishnu wrote:For what it is worth.... the Lackawanna Coalition representatives again worked diligently to block it. :D

Did diligence translate to success (on their part)?

amtrakowitz wrote:

Jishnu wrote:For what it is worth.... the Lackawanna Coalition representatives again worked diligently to block it. :D

Did diligence translate to success (on their part)?

It was sent back to Capital Programs, so it was not voted on at the meeting this time. That is the contract would not be let for at least another meeting cycle. So if delaying was the objective then it is a success. OTOH if the objective was simply asking some questions without delaying it was an unintended failure. I have no clue what the objective was.

So, when is the earliest we'll hear anything more on this development?

One thing i gotta say, is that for all the limitations with using DC traction power, one bonus is you don't need to carry around heavy transformers. That said, in the case of NJT, i think high voltage AC works for them especially in the EMU dept. I hope if these strange beasts do get built they are as arguably successful as the arrows have been.

Re-inventing the wheel? No, but pretty much every other double deck commuter EMU equipment is or has been DC powered aside from this:



Please correct me if i'm wrong!

even one you show (Dutch ICR ) is DC 1500 volt powered, it does have room for a 25Kv transformer for future upgrades.

25Hz wrote: Please correct me if i'm wrong!

God the number of followup posts to this is going to be huge....

There's plenty of AC high voltage double decker EMUs out there, the French even have a few multisystem ones. Hell, the Japanese even have a few....

The EMU sets used in the "Chunnel" between the UK and France carry equipment to run on multiple voltages,AC/DC
overhead wire and believe 3rd rail as well,along with cab signal gear for Network Rail (UK) and SCNF to run on the
TVG route to Paris.
It's going to be a bear to get all the hardware required to fit in/on MLV EMU car.

Backshophoss wrote:The EMU sets used in the "Chunnel" between the UK and France carry equipment to run on multiple voltages,AC/DC
overhead wire and believe 3rd rail as well,along with cab signal gear for Network Rail (UK) and SCNF to run on the
TVG route to Paris.
It's going to be a bear to get all the hardware required to fit in/on MLV EMU car.

The Eurostar sets had their third rail gear removed when the rest of the high-speed route to London was opened.

I would love to see a list of double deck AC EMU trains in service currently (pun intended) by country.

I know japan has shinkansen E1 and E4, but those are not commuter trains in the traditional sense.