New service cuts announced

Boingy wrote:Some other thoughts and rants on VIA's service cuts:

...

2) This isn’t all about travelling to and from Toronto, though that is where I know much of the discussion will focus among VIA's riders in Ontario. Folks from the 519 and southern 905 belts will not use the train to get to or from places like Kingston, Montreal, Ottawa, or Quebec any more—not if they can’t get a connection that makes sense for them (or, hell, even a connection at all!).

Air Canada, WestJet, Porter, and Greyhound (the old “Dirty Dog”) must all be licking their chops after VIA's announcement this week.

Regarding Toronto, a short while ago a quote from someone at VIA said that 51% of all VIA passengers entrained or detrained at Toronto Union Station. That, of course, includes passengers who were changing trains there. Cutting services west of Toronto will no doubt affect the total passengers who use Toronto Union. The number of passengers travelling between Toronto and London is impressive and I don't see that route being abandoned. Sadly for those who value the Windsor leg of those trains, the passenger loads west of London are fairly light. On most of the trains I have taken from Toronto to London (usually on #71 or #75) most of the train empties at London and very few board. Train #75 is one of the few VIA trains to have two Business Class (still labelled VIA 1) cars in operation, but both of them are nearly empty when the train pulls out of London for Windsor. Similarly trains from Windsor arrive in London with what looks like a very light load. A significant number of passengers board at London, often filling the train. I am not surprised that the week-end operation of #70 and #75 is being cut back to London.

Ken V wrote:Today, June 27 2012, VIA Rail Canada has announced a series of service reductions on certain routes. These include reducing the frequency of the Ocean from six times per week to three and the Canadian from three weekly trips to two during the off season.

Details can be found in the Backgrounder section of today's press release: http://www.newswire.ca/en/story/1000123 ... mer-demand

I guess the good news for "me " is that they did not "cut" my hometown train to Gaspe!

Boingy wrote:Some other thoughts and rants on VIA's service cuts:

1) I can guarantee you that Metrolinx/GO Transit will not rush in to fill the gaps that VIA is leaving behind in Ontario. They work at their own pace with their own priorities (and, to be fair, they have their own infrastructure and funding issues to contend with). They can't just expand service on a whim, and they will not feel that it is their duty to pick up the ball that VIA is quite consciously dropping here.

That business of how “GO Transit can pick up the slack” that VIA put into its press materials is a real howler. It sounds great in a press release but bears no relationship to how GO Transit actually functions on the ground.

2) This isn’t all about travelling to and from Toronto, though that is where I know much of the discussion will focus among VIA's riders in Ontario. Folks from the 519 and southern 905 belts will not use the train to get to or from places like Kingston, Montreal, Ottawa, or Quebec any more—not if they can’t get a connection that makes sense for them (or, hell, even a connection at all!).

Air Canada, WestJet, Porter, and Greyhound (the old “Dirty Dog”) must all be licking their chops after VIA's announcement this week.

You are so right on point #2
I live in Cambridge and driving down to Aldershot to catch #740 to make the connection for the first trains of the day to Ottawa #52 and Montreal #50 will be taken away which is not good.
You can catch Go Train # 902 from Burlington Go station at 05:13 and arrive at Toronto Union 06:10.
The GO train from Aldershot #470 departs at 05:13 and arrives at Toronto Union Station at 06:38 is no good! Trains #50 and #52 leave at 06:40
There is now no connection with #50 and #52 on Saturdays.
This will certainly turn customers off from the 519 and 905 calling area's
Not good VIA!!

The real problem is that VIA and GO are not talking to each other. In the interim, GO could have subsidized the VIA trains to Niagra Falls while they prepared for the ability to run their own service, sort of like what Amtrak did with NJT and the Clockers (minus the whole truncuation to Trenton thing). Has VIA considered encouraging a provincial-support model, similar to the state-supported trains south of the border? Ontario could help fund some of the cost of the Sarnia and Windsor trains, same with BC and the Vancouver Island train, as well as some money from "la belle province" for Montreal-Quebec City. Toronto-Ottawa-Montreal as well as the long distance trains could stay 100% federally funded as it is heavily interprovincial as well as of more national, as opposed to regional, importance.

In an ideal world, VIA could fund all the current service on its own, but given the impending cuts, this seems like a lost cause so I am proposing an alternate solution to preserve service. Ontarians contact your MPPs!

M&Eman wrote:The real problem is that VIA and GO are not talking to each other. In the interim, GO could have subsidized the VIA trains to Niagra Falls while they prepared for the ability to run their own service, sort of like what Amtrak did with NJT and the Clockers (minus the whole truncuation to Trenton thing). Has VIA considered encouraging a provincial-support model, similar to the state-supported trains south of the border? Ontario could help fund some of the cost of the Sarnia and Windsor trains, same with BC and the Vancouver Island train, as well as some money from "la belle province" for Montreal-Quebec City. Toronto-Ottawa-Montreal as well as the long distance trains could stay 100% federally funded as it is heavily interprovincial as well as of more national, as opposed to regional, importance.

In an ideal world, VIA could fund all the current service on its own, but given the impending cuts, this seems like a lost cause so I am proposing an alternate solution to preserve service. Ontarians contact your MPPs!

I do think that a provincial support model would be an excellent move. The provinces currently subsidize highway infrastructure for example (to the tune of several billion dollars a year) because providing that transportation link is considered essential. Why couldn't they pitch in on VIA's funding as well? In many ways it would make sense, as it would allow for the provinces that DO have rail service to help cover costs, while those without it wouldn't pay as much of the bill. As well, provinces that wanted better service (if Alberta, for example, wanted Calgary-Edmonton service restored, or Nova Scotia wanted Sydney-Halifax, etc) could bring forward a funding proposal that would see them foot the bill for VIA to expand.

Yet I doubt any of this will come to pass. The provinces are great for complaining that the feds are letting them down on this sort of service, but not quick to actually do anything about it. I would especially like to see Nova Scotia and New Brunswick stepping up around the Ocean cuts, but have the premiers or other significant people even commented, let along complained? Not yet, unless I've missed it.

Of these cuts, the most severe are those on The Ocean (from 6 days a week to 3 days a week, year round). Why on earth they would cut that train down like that all year (despite having no difficulty selling it out 6 days a week during peak seasons, and even 7 days a week at Christmas time) is beyond me. Sadly, I am willing to bet that unless service is brought back up within a few years, the Ocean may be cut altogether within a few years more. With recent remarks from Mr. Laliberte, it is clear the VIA management think people should be flying from the east coast in, or driving. And now with the added inconvenience of only being able to travel on 3 days of the week, I suspect more people will in fact choose other options. I won't, but I'm probably one of the only people actually willing to modify my travel schedule substantially to accommodate what days the train is running.

It does seem as though VIA gave up on the Ocean some time ago. The marketing of the train has been abysmal (go into the Halifax station even, and you'll see more advertising for VIA's corridor services and improvements than you will for the Ocean itself). Consider this: VIA is a competitor in the Maritimes-Central Canada travel market. Their competitors? The airlines (AC, WestJet and Porter), bus lines, and roads. VIA has many advantages over each of these modes (comfort, space, on board amenities, downtown-downtown connections, safety, etc.) and could definitely win a lot more customers if they advertised it right. But even before these cuts came, a lot of people here in Halifax don't even seem to know there is a train they could take. Everyone knows which airlines they can fly, but every time I mention taking the train from here to Ontario, most people's reactions seem to be either "really? I didn't know you could" or "I didn't know anyone actually took the train", among questions like "doesn't it only run like once a week or something?", "doesn't it take like 3 days to get to Ontario?", or other such questions.

There are a lot of advantages for why people would take that train. So where exactly is the advertising VIA? I know their funds are limited but still...I see Porter ads constantly in local newspapers, around town, etc. WestJet pops up quite a bit, and heck, even AC from time to time. VIA ads? Scarce at best.

So when Mr. Laliberte spouts lines about how "the market just isn't there" for passenger rail in Atlantic Canada, I simply say two things: a) When the train is routinely sold out 6 days a week at peak times, and 7 days a week at Christmas, why does the "lack of market" require a year-round cut to 3 a week? and b) I suspect the primary reason the "market isn't there", in so far as ridership is low overall, I think that is largely VIA's fault for failing to promote the service. Yes, other factors do play in (better air service, better highways, slower track in NB, etc.), but when many (if not most) people in the eastern terminus city on the route don't even know anything about the rail service, that's a failing on VIA's part.

I could rant on for a lot longer and say many more things, but I won't. Must save some sanity!

I am concerned about the future of the Canadian. There is currently a 60% sale for sleepers, valid for the entire peak-fare season. In previous years there were limited sales of 50%. These sales are in addition to the 75% discount Express Deals, offered sporadically for the past few years. From the time the Canadian received some much-needed upgrades in service with the introduction of Silver and Blue Class in 1992 until a few years ago there were no discounts in the summer season. The train ran with 12 sleepers and was full most of the time. Since the recession of a few years ago it appears necessary to offer huge discounts in order to fill the train. There was a time the Canadian came close to recovering its costs in the peak season, according to recently retired VP Christina Keon Sirsley, but with all the discounts available this can no longer be the case.

I had a trip on the Canadian from Winnipeg to Toronto last week. There were 11 sleepers (actually nine because two were deadhead but left in place because they had been in service between Vancouver and Jasper, I was told) plus the Park car. For the first time I used a 75%-off Express Deal, obtained the day before my trip, which replaced my original booking on VIA Preference points. It was a good way to get a cabin for two (double bedroom) at a very good price and obtain a refund of the points used for my original roomette - oops, "cabin for one." Number 2 arrived Winnipeg over two hours late, not a big deal. But as soon as I boarded my specifically-chosen bedroom "F" around midnight I was told that due to the toilet not working in that room I would have to move to a smaller bedroom (meaning anything other than "F") in a sleeper even further away from my friend who was travelling from Vancouver. For the low fare I was paying I didn't mind, but I doubt I would be so forgiving if I was paying full price. Later I found out the public toilet in the Park car was out of order as well. Neither toilets could be repaired in Winnipeg.

There are new menus and the food is as good as before. But some of the little things that contribute to a first class experience have disappeared. The dining car now offers paper napkins at breakfast and lunch and the flowers that once adorned the table are now fake, as is the small fake bunch in the Park car where there used to be a large bouquet. There are no evening hors d'ouevres in the Park car (except at the beginning of the trip when there is no dinner and departing Jasper.) The starters at dinner are inconsistent. The on-line menus say "soup or salad" but the on-train menus are missing the "or." So there may be soup or even a choice of two soups and a salad may be offered as well, but there may not be any soup and only a small salad. One breakfast and lunch have been combined into brunch on the eastbound trip. That has been the case westbound between Edmonton and Jasper for a few years, and that is understandable given the time of arrival in Jasper, but there is no logical reason to do this eastbound on the prairie. I can tolerate paper napkins for the low price I was paying, but my concern is this could be the beginning of a slippery slope. From the time VIA took over the transcontinental trains in the late 1970s and through the 1980s, they began downgrading the dining car service - the food quality was mediocre and paper plates and plastic dishes were used for everything except the main course. The service had nowhere to go but up. People who pay high prices expect quality and the Canadian will not exist much longer if everyone pays 60 to 75% off. Even before these big discounts were introduced, the Canadian consumed $50 million of VIA's annual subsidy. Eliminating napkins, flowers, one meal and canapés isn't going to compensate for these lower fares. Reducing the off-season runs to twice a week will help, but I am concerned there may be no #1 and #2 in a few years.

There are now six partially-rebuilt cars (four Château sleepers and two Park cars)for the Canadian at the Toronto Maintenance Centre. From what I can see as I pass by on GO trains, they are hollow inside. The last I heard from Via is that they are looking for a company in Canada to do the interior rebuild. VIA had originally announced that the complete rebuild was to be done at Avalon in Wisconsin and the upgraded section of the Canadian was to start this June. There was a brief mention in the last Vialogue that the completion of the first cars wasn't expected for a year and a half, so it looks like this high-fare service won't commence for two years.

Enquiring mind wants to know; while it appears that VIA has the prerogative to change frequencies at their pleasure, have they that same prerogative with regards to discontinuing a route in its entirety?

Judging from the immediate postings, it would appear that Kapitachuan Club QC will have VIA service after Portage La Prairie MB loses theirs; in view of that no cuts of the "remote" services were announced, they seem to be the safest services within the system.

Gilbert B Norman wrote:Enquiring mind wants to know; while it appears that VIA has the prerogative to change frequencies at their pleasure, have they that same prerogative with regards to discontinuing a route in its entirety?

It would seem so. While Transport Canada (another federal government agency) regulations state which routes VIA must operate and the minimum frequency on such routes, those rules change at the same time VIA announces any service reduction. Based on past history, especially in 1981 and 1990, VIA is certainly capable of dropping entire routes with little difficulty.

Thank you for your immediate thought, Mr. Ken V.

Mr. Marquis, possibly all is not lost - at least yet. Here is a recent and favorable "Canadian" trip report posted at another site (and submitted here with the Moderator's understanding):

http://www.railforum.com/cgi-bin/ultima ... /7323.html

Thank you, Mr Norman. No doubt the Canadian offers a very good rail travel experience (and I have ridden it at least once every year since 1967, although not all the way across the country every trip) but my concerns are mainly about the significant amount of VIA's operating subsidy that is required for its operation. More recent information is now available since I made my last calculation. VIA doesn't tell us directly how much each service loses, but they do give us statistics and we can do the maths. The 2011 figures are better than those of 2010, both in terms of number of passengers carried and amount of government funding per passenger-mile. For 2011 the losses of the Canadian were $44,443,000 compared to $50,339,000 in 2010. As a point of interest the Ocean also did better in 2011 with losses of $34,848,000 vs $36,336,000.

It's anyone's guess what the figures will look like for this year. On my recent trip on the Canadian the train wasn't full, although it was a long train. Most meals were served in two sittings in the two dining cars instead of the customary three sittings. The discounted fares on the Canadian are unprecedented. A quick perusal on Reservia showed that 60% discounted fares were available on all of the 20 dates I entered randomly. Prior to the current 60% sale there were many dates offered at 75% off. The 60% sale is more extensive because it is available on any departure up to near the end of October. VIA can, of course, limit the number of discounted berths/rooms as with any sale.

Amtrak's long distance trains this summer seem to be running pretty full - or especially in the sleeper category. Course Amtrak has a shortage with sleeper class overall when looking at supply and demand. Nonetheless,

With this in mind, I am somewhat surprised that Amtrak's sizeable bookings this summer has aso not poured out into some of VIA's long distance trains - be it the Canadian or Ocean. As mentioned on other forums, the Canadian runs a large consist in the summer, but some have reported that cars are often "blanked out" east of Jasper to Toronto due to low patronage. And it appears VIA's doing all that it can to lure patrons - i.e. 60% off specials during peak season is unprecedented.

Too bad those Budd sleepers couldn't be leased to Amtrak to augment the Viewliner fleet! Course Amtrak crews would have to go through training, reservations would be a nightmare and there are now more complicated mechanical issues to deal with between the fleets. I was even thinking of them as crew cars (to free up revenue space in the Viewliners), but the mechanical differences would be still be a huge problem. If one then considers the cutbacks that are coming to VIA, would seem they are going to be pretty flush with the ex-CP stainless steel Budd cars, particularly sleepers, domes, etc. Long gone are the days of through cars from Montreal/Toronto to Florida/Chicago.

The Ocean though seems to be having good patronage from the dates I was checking earlier in July though. I wait to see if the Gaspe train gets converted to Renaissance equipment once the "three a week" is put in place for the Ocean. After all, VIA did plan to convert the Gaspe train into Renaissance equipment when the purchase was made. This would free up one Renaissance train set for the Gaspe train, as much as I'd hate to see this happen. The Skyline dome car works really nice for the scenery on the trip out to Gaspe (when the train does operate "all the way").

Would be interesting to see if VIA looks to dabble in converting the northern Quebec trains or Prince Rupert train back to a schedule with overnight travel with the addition of the Budd sleepers. I would certainly think the trains operate cheaper as "day trains" but they were once popular overnight trains on portions of the route. A shortage of ex-CP stainless steel sleepers (after the ex-CN sleeper cars were retired with the 1990 cuts) largely converted them to day trains - or at least the northern Quebec trains.

Time will tell what passenger service will look like in Canada after these cuts go in place.

jp1822 wrote: The Ocean though seems to be having good patronage from the dates I was checking earlier in July though. I wait to see if the Gaspe train gets converted to Renaissance equipment once the "three a week" is put in place for the Ocean. After all, VIA did plan to convert the Gaspe train into Renaissance equipment when the purchase was made. This would free up one Renaissance train set for the Gaspe train, as much as I'd hate to see this happen. The Skyline dome car works really nice for the scenery on the trip out to Gaspe (when the train does operate "all the way").

Would be interesting to see if VIA looks to dabble in converting the northern Quebec trains or Prince Rupert train back to a schedule with overnight travel with the addition of the Budd sleepers. I would certainly think the trains operate cheaper as "day trains" but they were once popular overnight trains on portions of the route. A shortage of ex-CP stainless steel sleepers (after the ex-CN sleeper cars were retired with the 1990 cuts) largely converted them to day trains - or at least the northern Quebec trains.

Time will tell what passenger service will look like in Canada after these cuts go in place.

Patronage of the Ocean has been improving more recently, but I fear that these latest cuts may kill the train for good. Adding the inconvenience of being able to only travel on 3 days a week (which might be more negotiable on a trip like the Canadian, but makes absolutely no sense on a 1-night trip), plus the fact that those 3 trains are now likely to be sold out well in advance on most departures (say goodbye to any chance of Express deals and prepare to book supersavers exceptionally early...this was also becoming the case even with 6/week), I expect VIA's ridership on the Ocean will plummet. I'm still baffled by 3/week YEAR ROUND. Why not only in the off-peak? They routinely sell out the train in peak season, and at Christmas time can even sell out with a 7/week schedule. I sadly think VIA has set-up a self-fulfilling prophecy with these cuts. Drop it to 3/week, kill remaining ridership, and then make the argument that the market really isn't there because people aren't using a service that has been made deliberately inconvenient. That way, they may be able to justify just dropping the service altogether. And of course there is the reality that ridership is not necessarily the indicator of whether a line survives anyway. The daily Halifax-Sydney RDC service was extremely well patronized and justified, but it was axed in the early 1990s cuts. Now getting that service back, even though the market would definitely still be there, is near impossible because the line quality has degraded severely and stations are closed or re-purposed. Once you lose it...


Now as for the Gaspe service: I would be interested to see if this does go Renaissance. With needing only 2 sets for the Ocean, VIA will now have a surplus of Ren sleepers in particular. The extra coaches, service cars and baggage could go to the Corridor, and there would now actually be a spare diner for the Ocean, but the majority of the equipment is sleepers that have no use anywhere else. You can hardly just toss a couple Ren sleepers onto the Canadian, and I guarantee they wouldn't go out to the Winnipeg-Churchill run (they have enough problems with the cold in Maritimes winters as it is!) Plus the cuts to the Canadian will free up surplus off-season Budd equipment.

If they did go to Renaissance on the Gaspe run, I think it would be a real shame. I'd like to get a chance to ride that train in its Budd incarnation, and would really question how worthwhile it would be with Ren equipment, unless they added a Park like with the Ocean.

There is another rumour going around with the Gaspe run, that VIA may be considering axing it as a Sleeper train and replacing it with an all coach run. Passengers would be booked on the Ocean as far as Matapedia, then on to an all coach (maybe RDC) run for the rest of the way. I cannot speak for the veracity of this rumour, except to say that it seems likely that it is at least being discussed. I think it would be a lousy idea and would create a lot of problems...but I also think most of the current VIA cuts are a lousy idea.


One more tangential thought about the future of the Maritimes services: I do realize that this pretty well guarantees there will be no more Budd equipment on the Ocean. With only 2 Ren sets needed, there should be no reason to swap one out with Budds for the winter as they have in the past several years. Add to that the fact that the upgrades/mods are almost finished...I think the Budd days on the Ocean may be over. I could be wrong though...I would hope that things will change and a government with some sense might come in that sees a value to VIA Rail and restores funding and actually IMPROVES the rail system (what a bizarre and foreign idea that seems to be to our politicians), or perhaps some day the provinces might actually get their act together and do something to help the problem.

Who knows.

"Train to Kapitichuan Club and Senneterre now boarding....."

http://www.flickr.com/photos/d70w7/4840161331/

Will train to Saskatoon be far behind?

I believe metrolinx's "the big move" includes possibility of GO to niagara falls more than just certain weekends of the year. Also is talks of extending service to grimsby year round with regular commuter trains, with those trains stopping at hamilton james station. Under that plan hamilton would retain service to/from the TH&B station. Part of that proposal would involve possible electrification from toronto union station to aldershot or hamilton. This would mean new equipment, possible dual power akin to NJT/AMT's ALP-45DP.

Exciting stuff for GO, sorry to hear about the other cuts elsewhere.

Gilbert B Norman wrote:"Train to Kapitichuan Club and Senneterre now boarding....."

http://www.flickr.com/photos/d70w7/4840161331/

Will train to Saskatoon be far behind?

For a second i thought it read EXCUrSIONS TO CALIFORNIA vs IN. I thought wow that's a long trip in a tiny rattler all the way from canada to california...