Railroad Forums 

Discussion of Canadian Passenger Rail Services such as AMT (Montreal), Go Transit (Toronto), VIA Rail, and other Canadian Railways and Transit

Moderator: Ken V

 #1072725  by buddah
 
This is definitely a sad turn of events for VIA rail, As the part that mostly disturbs me is the cuts to southwestern Ontario. I believed a few yrs ago VIA was tangentially stating that service in the corridor as a whole was on the rise and in response they were looking to add more and/or longer trains to routes. In my opinion the southern Ontario routes lack a large majority of ridership from there being no feasible connection to Amtrak. I must admit once the International was cut Amtrak and VIA rail lost 50% of my business and it has steadily been on the decline.

As VIA may be looking to cut service to Niagara falls this would be an area where GO transit could pick up the slack. Is there a profit margin in it for GO? small but yes. However with current trains? probably not. The only way IMHO rail travel from the like of Hamilton to Niagara falls would even be considered a possibility on a daily basis is if GO adopted the Metra mid day dinky strategy. Lets face it theres no need for 10-12 car GO trains from Burlington/Hamilton to Niagara falls, now if the consist was cut to 1 locomotive 3 cars ( 1 of the 3 a cab control car) from Hamilton to Niagara falls it might make for a more cost feasible strategy. less fuel usage, less wear and tear on rolling stock, and now less man power as you would only need one conductor and the engineer. In this formation GO might be able to get away with canceling through bus service every hour in favor of train service every other hour.

25hz .... GO and VIA Rail have been in talks for electrifying there corridor for decades ( VIA had there own plans and GO had there own but both were to be compatible with each others ) However now with the cut in corridor service on VIA rail I would not count on seeing any more proposals in the near future from GO to electrify anything on there own.

The oceans and the Canadian now being downgraded again in service will only help drive the knife in LD passenger service in Canada. Im sorry to say but the majority of the population if not seeing an operation run on a daily basis consider it a tourist option only, its sad to say the trip is as long as it is with so many stopovers, which drives away any one considering ground transportation as an option. Most will just drive or jump on the "grey dogs" back.

Now for southern Ontario, VIA rail may want to consider bringing back the international ( or parts of it) and using VIA equipment this time around, however the only likely option is a train through Sarnia /port huron as it was before. The difference is this time around to run the train on the southern route from Toronto -Hamilton- London as a way to shave an hour and change of the trip time. I always hated taking the slow, bumpy long way through Kitchener. Also adding welded rails between Strathroy and Sarnia wouldn't hurt. Since the Sarnia route currently is only one a day and may be discontinued thinking outside the box to add passenger traffic may be worth a test trial, even if the train does not continue all the way to Chicago. Restructuring/rescheduling in canada (VIA) and the US (Amtrak) to at least have VIA cross in port huron for a connection to the blue water and then continue to run the train down the CN to Detroit's Amtrak station for connections to the Wolverine service.( notably Detroit to port huron a route that neither Greyhound or Megabus serves) Might help to keep the route alive. Note this is Only a suggestion of what I would be trying to drum up business before totally axing the route.
 #1072732  by buddah
 
Pacific 2-3-1 wrote:1) The London-Sarnia ON train that's getting cut is what used to be part of the Amtrak/VIA "International", or what used to be, pre-Amtrak, the Grand Trunk Western-Canadian National day train from Chicago to Toronto, which was called "Maple Leaf".
2)I think it's a bit silly for Amtrak and VIA not to have some sort of a through train from Chicago to Toronto, when you have two so-called "corridors" situated end-to-end between both cities. The distance is less than that from Chicago to Omaha. But I don't think either carrier likes dealing with the other.
.

Pacific my friend...
1) The International between Chicago and Toronto was always the "International" Amtrak/Via rail called it " THE International" And PRE-Amtrak The Grand Trunk called it the " International Limited" and it ran from Chicago-Toronto- Montreal. Odd fact: The Grand trunk did Chicago-Montreal in roughly the same amount of time it took AMTK/VIA to just get from Chicago to Toronto. The Maple leaf has always been between Toronto and NYC.

2) I agree with too countries having what they would like to call (corridor service) Amtraks wolverine and VIAs T.O. to Windsor 3/4 trains a day within a "hop, skip, and a jump" of terminating from one another to have no stable connection between the two is beyond my belief. I think you may be on the right track about the carries not wanting to work together or the potential would have been exploited some time ago.
 #1072782  by NS VIA FAN
 
buddah wrote:
Pacific 2-3-1 wrote:1) The London-Sarnia ON train that's getting cut is what used to be part of the Amtrak/VIA "International", or what used to be, pre-Amtrak, the Grand Trunk Western-Canadian National day train from Chicago to Toronto, which was called "Maple Leaf".
Pacific my friend...
1) The International between Chicago and Toronto was always the "International" Amtrak/Via rail called it " THE International" And PRE-Amtrak The Grand Trunk called it the " International Limited" and it ran from Chicago-Toronto- Montreal. Odd fact: The Grand trunk did Chicago-Montreal in roughly the same amount of time it took AMTK/VIA to just get from Chicago to Toronto. The Maple leaf has always been between Toronto and NYC.
In pre-Amtrak/VIA times.....The “Maple Leaf” was the GTW-CN daytime train between Chicago and Toronto.....also on this route were the “LaSalle” and “Inter City Limited”

The “International Limited” was the GTW-CN overnight train between Chicago and Toronto.

These trains continued on to/from Montreal as joint CN-CP “Pool” Trains.

CN also had another “Maple Leaf” .....a jointly operated overnight train with the Lehigh Valley Railroad between Toronto and New York/Philadelphia. It followed the same route as today’s “Maple Leaf” between Toronto and Niagara Falls.
 #1072905  by buddah
 
NS VIA FAN wrote: In pre-Amtrak/VIA times.....The “Maple Leaf” was the GTW-CN ___daytime____ train between Chicago and Toronto... “Inter City Limited”
The “International Limited” was the GTW-CN ___overnight___ train between Chicago and Toronto.
CN also had another “Maple Leaf” .....a jointly operated overnight train with the Lehigh Valley Railroad between Toronto and New York/Philadelphia. It followed the same route as today’s “Maple Leaf” between Toronto and Niagara Falls.
AHH yes I missed the part were he said "daytime", my mistake. As my history book name the Inter city limited as the daytime train I have now noticed there was another..... Maple leaf, train. The (name) was moved to the Toronto-NYC run.
However the International has always been Between Chicago and Toronto, it was however moved into the daytime slot. similarly the original NYC -Toronto maple leaf was overnight and then moved into the daytime slot as well.
 #1073157  by labaienordique
 
Interview with Dave Kilgour: “VIA Rail reducing passenger service in Sudbury”
http://www.cbc.ca/morningnorth/past-epi ... in-sudbury

Interview with David Jeanes “What is the future of passenger rail service in Canada?”
http://www.cbc.ca/morningnorth/past-epi ... in-canada/
 #1073481  by jp1822
 
labaienordique wrote:Interview with Dave Kilgour: “VIA Rail reducing passenger service in Sudbury”
http://www.cbc.ca/morningnorth/past-epi ... in-sudbury

Interview with David Jeanes “What is the future of passenger rail service in Canada?”
http://www.cbc.ca/morningnorth/past-epi ... in-canada/
Interesting as this is really a gloom and doom story that is being put forth on passenger rail future in Canada, with reference to future cuts beyond what is currently on the table with (e.g. Ontario Northlander elimination, cutbacks on the long distance train frequencies etc.).

Private rail car owners may be on the prowl to buy up what they can from Ontario Northlander and even VIA Rail if the ex-CP Budd stainless steel cars are put on the market!
 #1073530  by marquisofmississauga
 
There is a notice on the Website of the Ontario Northland saying that the last run of the Northlander will be on the 28th of Sept. The discontinuance of this service is no surprise, but this is the first I have hear of the date. This is becoming a bleak year for passenger rail service in Canada.

http://www.ontarionorthland.ca/index.php/en/
 #1073836  by dowlingm
 
I was hoping that there would be some coherence between VIA cuts and GO expansion - that as VIA withdrew from Niagara and Kitchener that there would be concurrent GO announcements about maintaining frequency on the route. Instead people seem to be just being told "it's buses for you" with no overt sense that GO and VIA can work together with the exception of GO trains being on ReserVIA. As for Northlander, the lack of transparency about what was or wasn't tried - particularly contracting out the passenger rail to VIA and their economies of scale - is maddening.
 #1073840  by MACTRAXX
 
Everyone: I have been following somewhat VIA Rail Canada's 2012 service cuts...

How do these compare with the 1990 cuts in terms of train service?

Was this a political move? Are the ruling Conservatives responsible for these cuts?

I now notice the news about Ontario Northland's "Northlander"...

As mentioned this is not a good year for passenger rail service in Canada...

MACTRAXX
 #1074240  by Gilbert B Norman
 
So long as discussion of Ontario Northland passenger services appears to be fair game at this topic, here goes.

Since a look at a map of Ontario shows no highways between Cochrane and Moosonee, I guess that service can be better justified than Toronto-Cochrane where there is a parallel highway (and ONR is in the bus business as well). However, one must wonder how will the remaining passenger equipment be handled when periodic maintenance of such is required?

Or will Cochrane-Moosonee soon be served by glorified Fairmont track cars?
 #1074306  by labaienordique
 
Have any of you driven highway 11 (North of North Bay) in the winter? Would you feel safe driving/riding on this surface? lol

Image
near Temagami

There is sporadic cellular service (at best) between North Bay & Latchford, and the highway is subject to numerous road closures throughout the year. And considering the road plowing track record of provincial highways in the north recently...

Transportation ministry evaluating plow job
http://www.nugget.ca/2011/12/30/transpo ... g-plow-job

Given the two types of announcements regarding the ONTC & Metrolinx, these two statements indicate to me there is a double standard with respect to passenger transportation services between Northeastern Ontario & South of Barrie.

"Starting this fall, Ontario will offer refunds to GO Train riders whose trains are more than 15 minutes late, except when delays are caused by extreme weather, police investigations, accidents and medical emergencies. "

"Investing in public transit is part of the McGuinty government's plan to strengthen the economy. A strong economy protects the services that mean most to Ontario families — health care and education."


http://www.newswire.ca/en/story/973963/ ... -this-fall

Fair is fair. We pay taxes too and we should be entitled to the same services assured for those in the GTA.
 #1074345  by marquisofmississauga
 
MACTRAXX wrote:Everyone: I have been following somewhat VIA Rail Canada's 2012 service cuts...

How do these compare with the 1990 cuts in terms of train service?

Was this a political move? Are the ruling Conservatives responsible for these cuts?

I now notice the news about Ontario Northland's "Northlander"...

As mentioned this is not a good year for passenger rail service in Canada...

MACTRAXX
The Mulroney Conservatives cut roughly 50% of VIA's trains in January 1990, including many routes which lost all service. There were approximately 3000 employees laid off. I believe that was close to half. I'm not trying to gloss over the current cuts, but by comparison no routes are being cut completely and 9% of VIA's union employees will be laid off, totalling 200 positions. The 1990 cuts reduced the transcontinental service between Winnipeg and Vancouver from 14 trains a week each way, i. e. daily service on both routes, to the current three days a week. Fortunately, the Canadian will revert to three days a week operation in May of next year. It's a pity that the Ocean won't be restored in summer to its present six times a week operation.

The government has cut VIA's operating budget. Despite Mr. Laliberte's twaddle about these cuts - sorry, modernization - being necessitated by lower ridership - it is obvious the budget cut is responsible. I don't think he's fooling anybody.
 #1080449  by neroden
 
Laliberte was appointed by Harper, who also made the budget cuts.

When communities asked for the ridership numbers to justify the claims that various services had "low ridership", VIA said they didn't have those numbers avaiable.

Meanwhile, reports are that the Ocean routinely sold out west of Moncton (so naturally it's being cut in frequency due to "low ridership"). The more useful of the two trains from Sarnia is being cut. The *whole* of Niagara Falls service is being cut, apart from the Maple Leaf (cutting that would probably cause an international incident).

It seems clear after doing my research that Harper has it in for passenger rail in Canada, and Laliberte is his hatchet man. Popular services will be cut if he thinks he can get away with it, and service quality will be reduced whereever possible so as to drive passengers away.

Nothing will get better until the criminal Harper (I call him a criminal due to the results of the Parliamentary inquiry) is out of office.
 #1080459  by neroden
 
MACTRAXX wrote:Everyone: I have been following somewhat VIA Rail Canada's 2012 service cuts...

How do these compare with the 1990 cuts in terms of train service?
Not *nearly* as large.

However, there was a smaller base of services to start from, so these cuts are going to hurt a lot.

This is what's left:
- several less-than-daily services, which are guaranteed to perform poorly (Amtrak figured this out over a decade ago)
- the completely disconnected Sudbury to White River train, also guaranteed to perform poorly
- trains to Jonquierre and Seneterre, also guaranteed to perform poorly
----
- the Maple Leaf
- three a day to Quebec City (almost 4 a day, but one of them doesn't run on weekends)
- one a day to Sarnia
- three a day to Windsor (almost 4 a day, but one doesn't run on Fridays and Saturdays !!!)
- six a day to London (more if it isn't Saturday); two via Guelph, four via Brantford
- difficult-to-determine numbers of trains per day between Toronto, Ottawa, and Montreal

VIA has the most appalling timetable presentation, which is why it took me so long to work this out, and why I stopped before counting the Toronto-Montreal trains. There is no unified London service timetable. There is no unified Kingston service timetable. There is no unified Toronto-Montreal service timetable. It makes me appreciative of the people who design Amtrak's timetable presentation.

I genuinely think the VIA execs are trying to drive people away; this is deliberate consumer-unfriendliness.
Was this a political move? Are the ruling Conservatives responsible for these cuts?
Of course. They're cutting trains which are *full* (while retaining the implausible Gaspe service). They worship at the altar of the oil companies.
The 1990 cuts were also by Conservatives. The '81 cuts were by Liberals. Someone elect the NDP at the federal level, please.
I now notice the news about Ontario Northland's "Northlander"...
This seems to be driven by different motives. Demand and potential demand are obviously much lower on this route, so it's not necessarily pure malice.
As mentioned this is not a good year for passenger rail service in Canada...
Indeed not.
 #1080899  by goodnightjohnwayne
 
neroden wrote:Laliberte was appointed by Harper, who also made the budget cuts.
Well, yes, Prime Ministers do appoint ministers and set policies. And Harper did win a majority.
neroden wrote:Meanwhile, reports are that the Ocean routinely sold out west of Moncton (so naturally it's being cut in frequency due to "low ridership").
And I've actually seen the crew outnumber the passengers when the Ocean arrived in Halifax. Huge consist, small number of passengers.

neroden wrote: The more useful of the two trains from Sarnia is being cut. The *whole* of Niagara Falls service is being cut, apart from the Maple Leaf (cutting that would probably cause an international incident).
As a whole, the industrial based economy of Southern Ontario has been in a downward spiral due to the strength of the Canadian dollar and high wage scales of unionized Canadian labor. I would imagine that ridership has been suffering on the Ontario routes being reduced in frequency. And seasonal GO Transit service to Niagara Falls, undercutting VIA's fare and offering cannibalistic competition, couldn't have helped.
neroden wrote:It seems clear after doing my research that Harper has it in for passenger rail in Canada, and Laliberte is his hatchet man. Popular services will be cut if he thinks he can get away with it, and service quality will be reduced whereever possible so as to drive passengers away.
I'm not sure how popular the services in question were. Even on these boards, there's been hardly a peep. Compare that to the public demonstrations back in 1990. It was a big deal when the daily Canadian stopped running over the CP route. Not so much today. It's mostly gone unnoticed.
neroden wrote:Nothing will get better until the criminal Harper (I call him a criminal due to the results of the Parliamentary inquiry) is out of office.
And what did you call Jean Chrétien after his testimony in front of the Gomery Commission? Oh, that's right, instead of testifying he displayed his collection of golf balls, and the commission let him get away with it. Jean Jean Chrétien: golf ball collector. Steven Harper, on the other hand, likes cats, not golf balls. https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/-92iA ... 3-Cat1.jpg Golf ball collector, cat enthusiast, and neither PM was a "criminal."