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  • MOW Crashes .... Train vs MOW

  • General discussion about locomotives, rolling stock, and equipment
General discussion about locomotives, rolling stock, and equipment

Moderator: John_Perkowski

 #346299  by pablo
 
Well, it probably is the answer. It would be a harder thing to defend if all railroad equipment had GPS and what-not, but they don't. Quite a bit of equipment doesn't have GPS, and so, it would be a big investment.

I'm not disagreeing with you at all, but this is hardly the first time railroads haven't adopted technology quickly that could save lives.

Dave Becker

 #346304  by ExEMDLOCOTester
 
I'll bet the corporate limo's have GPS...

 #346307  by jg greenwood
 
Safety first, unless it costs money...........

 #346579  by GN 599
 
In my little world of the BNSF a lot of the Hi-rails have GPS. I always hear them over the radio giving them their i.d. number to the dispatcher right before I get hosed by them when the dispatcher gives them their track warrant. Granted this is T.W.C. (dark territory) so I dont know if its more common on our sub since we lack signals.....

 #346683  by Aji-tater
 
Putting a GPS on every piece of equipment would not be hard, or even prohibitively expensive. The real problem is what do you do with it? You would need an entire dispatching system which monitors all equipment, analyzes what is where and where it is going, and has the capability of giving alarm or taking action. I don't know the particulars of how the train got onto the wrong track but one possible cause would be human error. So even if a GPS showed the train moving, would it be accurate enough to show it was one track over from where it should be, and would anybody have been watching? If they were watching that closely they would likely have seen the problem even without the GPS.

I will agree the companies do not always make the best choices for safe operation but in this case there is far more involved than just putting a GPS on everything that moves.

 #346732  by ExEMDLOCOTester
 
Good points.

So the MOW Guys & Gals deserve less than the best to protect their lives?

 #346791  by MEC407
 
Sure they deserve the best, but sometimes the best isn't enough. Accidents will always happen.

 #346831  by Aji-tater
 
It's not a case of their not deserving the best. It's a case of this isn't an HO set and it's not a matter of "open the box and use it". What you are suggesting is a GPS based dispatching system which will override human input. It just isn't yet available. There are several projects involving Positive Train Control, or is it Positive Train Separation? It's being developed but this minute there just is no such system ready to be used. As MEC says, as long as there are humans there will be errors.

I'm not an expert on GPS. How elaborate would it have to be to pinpoint track occupancy? I know surveyors can use GPS to locate points less than an inch deviation. But some other GPS units I have heard of are accurate up to about 15 feet. If you have 2 tracks they are probably on 13 to 15 foot centers meaning some GPS units would not be capable of deciding which of the two tracks a piece of equipment is on. And as a train with a GPS passes some other equipment on another track, the 2 GPS units may be only 10 to 15 feet apart. Side by side, no problem. Same track, big problem.

Like I said I know the companies are not always great about spending money but in this case it does not seem fair to say it's the carriers lack of concern.

 #347140  by BlackDog
 
jg greenwood wrote:Safety first, unless it costs money...........
Or intereferes with productivity

 #347506  by ExEMDLOCOTester
 
Thirty feet would be fine. The system would need to integrate human and computer agreement. From what I read in the other thread, posted by RR employees, the front end of the task requires a form "D" from MOW or who ever to begin the process. A 1 minute ping would be sufficient to indicate the where abouts of the MOW equipment. If the human attempts to clear trackage that is fouled by the MOW Ping, the trackage remains fouled. If the pinger fails before the MOW task is complete, the human is notified by an alarm that the ping has disappeared and communication with the MOW crew becomes mandatory. The technology is available. GPS transcievers are out in the transportation world reporting locations of equipment. I hope a road employee with a position high on the food chain acts on the present technology. If it saves one life its worth it.

 #347936  by Aji-tater
 
We all learn something each day. And I can admit when I'm wrong. See my post above about how we don't have the technology available yet, then read this column by Don Phillips.

"For almost a century, electronic and mechanical methods have been available to automatically stop trains if an engineer fails to heed a signal telling him to slow or stop. High-speed trains like the French TGV and the German and Japanese systems have such protection. Yet the cost and complexity of these systems have left the vast majority of the world’s trains dependent on the alertness of the engineer.

In the United States this week, the government approved use of a system by the freight railroad BNSF, formerly the Burlington Northern Santa Fe that could turn out to be a simple and relatively cheap solution to the prevention of train collisions.

It is far too early to tell if this system or some version of it will be a worldwide solution to the collision problem. At a minimum, it is the forerunner of a new generation of rail safety equipment.

Using satellite systems, including the Global Positioning System, the new Electronic Train Management System will determine the exact location and speed of all trains. If the system detects a possible collision, it will first send the engineer an alert. If the engineer fails to acknowledge the alert and take action, the system will slow the train and stop it in time to prevent a collision.

The system goes beyond collisions, enforcing speed limits and stopping trains if a switch is improperly set. It is also capable of adding other safety overlays without the need for expensive wire lines or track equipment.

“This is a major achievement that marks the beginning of a new era of rail safety,” said Joseph Boardman, head of the Federal Railroad Administration, which approved the system.

All the approving words, however, cannot make up for the fact that such modern systems were successfully tested over a quarter-century ago. A different era of railroad management, upset at the cost of the systems, ignored the tests. The major differences today are that railroads are far more profitable, a new generation of lower-cost equipment is available, and Boardman is dedicated to moving more rapidly on such major safety systems."
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 #347956  by BlackDog
 
Well Boardman is the only one then. Here on the CN we can't get them to lower high mounted handbrakes so conductors don't have to climb up ice encrusted ladders to release them, 'cuz they don't have to. There is a reason they have 3 commas in their earnings reports, and they are not going to do anything that might imperil that.

I am curious what the standards and settings are going to be....a 14,000 ton coal train @ 50 mph , will the system trigger it to stop a mile from the red absolute or will it initiate a stopping action after the train passes the red? If they are serious about this, bye-bye 2 man crews, hello running solo.

 #348484  by l008com
 
Apparently what happened in Woburn was a dispather that misunderstood what he or she heard of the radio, and thought a track crew was clear of a section of track. Seems to me, rather than installing GPS on every piece of equipment, wouldn't it be better to simply park a small track car a mile up the track, so if somehow a train does end up on a course heading for the work crew, it would see the track car, hit the E brake, anihilate the track car, and no one would be hurt (unless the train derailerd but maybe instead of a track car just one wooden 'work ahead' marker). I don't know very much at all about rail policy, just stating what seems logical to me.

 #349415  by ExEMDLOCOTester
 
Aji-tater

Please Spread the word :-D