Metrolink Crash in Chatsworth, CA - 9/12/08

Spokker wrote:It reminds me of the Placentia accident some years ago. In that incident BNSF was to blame.

Today's crash happened on track that is owned/managed by Metrolink and the train was in pull mode. Hopefully it won't start another push-pull fiasco. I really hope Metrolink isn't at fault here.

To this day that commuter train wreck reminds myself of how life is fragile-- I was supposed to be on the train, but i was late and missed the train.

Theres also reports that another fatality on another Metrolink line-- a train was involved in a train-auto crash in Corona, California a hour later after Chatsworth-- http://www.beloblog.com/Pe_Blogs/news/d ... its-c.html

A few points come to mind. Before I saw the photos, I was hoping that the loco was leading and not the cab-car, thinking that it would be far worse with the cab-car. But it looks like even though the loco was leading, the results were still catastrophic.

Also, are these trains equipped with cab-signals and does this railroad have any type of automatic-train-control system in place?

In addition to all of the tragedy to the passengers, railroad employees and their families, let's also remain aware of the toll this will take on many of the emergency responders from LAFD, LAPD and other agencies. Especially the firefighters who are heavily engaged in the extrication efforts; some will undoubtedly suffer some post-traumatic stress from this. It's fortunate in a way though, that this happened in an area with one of the best staffed and equipped fire departments anywhere in the country.

Head-end View wrote:A few points come to mind. Before I saw the photos, I was hoping that the loco was leading and not the cab-car, thinking that it would be far worse with the cab-car. But it looks like even though the loco was leading, the results were still catastrophic.

Also, are these trains equipped with cab-signals and does this railroad have any type of automatic-train-control system in place?

In addition to all of the tragedy to the passengers, railroad employees and their families, let's also remain aware of the toll this will take on many of the emergency responders from LAFD, LAPD and other agencies. Especially the firefighters who are heavily engaged in the extrication efforts; some will undoubtedly suffer some post-traumatic stress from this. It's fortunate in a way though, that this happened in an area with one of the best staffed and equipped fire departments anywhere in the country.

Those who are more familiar with the line will know, but I don't believe that line has cab signals/ATC on it....

Jtgshu wrote:Im absolutely shocked at the amount of telescoping damage there was in that bilevel car with the Metrolink engine.

This wreck looks like sometihng from the 1910s and 20s instead of in 2008 with state of the art (within the past decade at least) equipment.

Is it an inherent flaw in the design of a bilevel car that would allow that kind of damage (not having a single solid frame running the length of the car) or has the FRA collision standards for locos actually too strong now and the locos survive while the car behind the loco takes the brunt of the damage, and in the case of a passenger train, most of the fatalities?

As an engineer, I appreciate the standards, but at what point has it gone too far? The cars are supposed to accordian, NOT telescope, not in this day and age..........

My thoughts are with all involved, my deceased brother railroaders, the deceased and injured passengers and their families, and the first responders and all those involved and touched by this horrific accident

Word for word, as an engineer, I echo Jtgshu's thoughts.

We go to work each day, and it's when things like this happen, I am reminded that there is always the slightest chance that we may not get home again, and hence our need to be completely alert out there....

It's puzzling that the second and third cars are left on the rails some distance behind the overturned first car. The diaphragm of the second car is intact. You would expect to find the last two cars piled up with the first car; and because this didn't hapen, the number of fatalities must have been reduced. Considering the physics involved, why would a colliding train separate like this?

The federal NTSB investigation will conclude with an exhaustive discussion of why and how the accident happened.

During the night, the teams used hydraulic jacks to keep the passenger car from falling over and other specialized rescue equipment to gently tear apart the metal.

Fire Capt. Steve Ruda said the goal was to eliminate every piece of metal and gradually work down into the passenger spaces, but by midnight crews were just getting through the top deck of the double-decker train.

"There's human beings in there and it's going to be painstaking to get them out," Ruda said. "They'll have to surgically remove them."

His firefighters had never seen such carnage, he said. The crews would have to work carefully to document the incident for investigators and so relatives could identify bodies, Ruda said.

Officials say there were 222 people on the Metrolink train and four Union Pacific employees aboard the freight train.

http://cbs2.com/local/Metrolink.Crash.C ... 16721.html

It is safe to assume that there will be major FRA interest in the physics of this crash...something went very wrong here.

trainwayne1 wrote:Many pictures and a couple of RR employees comments can be seen here.... http://www.trainorders.com/discussion/r ... ?1,1758259

Only the thumbnail pictures available there unless you pay up. Here's a link to some free pictures:
http://www.sfgate.com/cgi-bin/object/ar ... 243D47.DTL

Here's video from a Kid that live's in CA. He took video of that ill fated train as it pulled out of the station.

Len.

The now ruined train that was in crash departing Palmdale
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GB5cCaGBkcQ

Is this CTC / 261 territory or is it still track warrant territory (or whatever terms they use there)?

This is so very sad. May the victims rest in peace.

Metrolink really has a terrible safety record. They have had three fatal accidents in the last five years while most other US commuter railroads have had none. Metra has only had one in the last 8 years with two fatalities.

RPM2Night wrote:I'm sure the FRA will implement higher standards for crash protection.

I'm not so sure about that. I don't know how much more crash-worthiness can be wrung out of modern railcars without making them prohibitively heavy. I think what we may see instead is an immediate move to get some sort of interim step toward PTC on all lines over which passenger trains operate - perhaps ATS, ATC, or something of that nature. And I expect the target implementation year for PTC, which is currently 2018, to be moved up.

With the number of people who are taking to the rails given the increased price of gasoline, there is going to be a lot of pressure to do something NOW. And you're not going to be able to make every single passenger car in the nation more crash-worthy in any reasonable amount of time. You could, however, see some implementation of incremental positive stop enforcement applied in a more reasonable and "do-able" time frame.

It's all well and good to discuss the structure and durability of the cars, however modifications are not as important as preventing high-speed collisions. The structure of the cars may be a moot point considering the massive impact of the 2 trains. Several questions arise: Do the trains have cab signal or intermittent train control? Did the dispatcher notice any encroachment from the siding to the main line? Did the signals in both directions display red or go red when the encroachment occurred? Was there a sign of any braking on either trains part? Where all of the switches in their proper positions? What logic allowed both trains to be on the same track? Were signal circuits defeated accidentally during maintenance? Was there vandalism?

Seems they are already blaming the Engineer on the Metrolink train for passing a stop signal.A terrible tragic waste of human life when the technology to have prevented it from happening is available.At worst case it would have been a less than 15 mph impact.Unfortunately we humans can make mistakes.It will cost them more in claims than a speed control system would have cost them.A real shame and there is no reason for it except money.Same thing goes on with the airlines.A close friend was a pilot who crashed a plane killing 49 people,all it would have cost the carrier to equip each aircraft with a device to identify the runway they were on was 18k a plane.The settlements from the deaths must have cost the airline billions.My sympathies goe out to all involved with this terrible tradgedy.You don't realize what you did everyday until you don't do it anymore.

Well to blame the engineer, I am surprised dispatch did not see this? or the conductor did not say anything?
Im still haunted by seeing the one girl lifted out of the top deck by crane, she was deceased.
As well as the firemen, "firemen" carrying the one girl over his shoulder who was also deceased.
Its a shame that this happened when you know something could of have been done.
Wasn't this Union Pacific Dispatching and owned track? My thoughts and prayers to those that were on the train and to the family's enduring the pain and I pray that anyone I might of known on that train made it out or happened to miss it.

Metrolink to blame , engineer blew red signal.



http://www.latimes.com/news/local/la-me ... 0884.story


Had the engineer stopped, a spokeswoman says, the accident would not have occurred. At least 18 have been reported killed and 135 injured in the collision of the commuter train and a freight train

farmerjohn wrote:Well to blame the engineer, I am surprised dispatch did not see this? or the conductor did not say anything?

Looking at the site with Google Earth, it is about 1/4 mile from the end of siding home signal to the crash site - about 30 seconds at 30 mph.

If it's CTC there, would the conductor even know they were supposed to be waiting there? And assuming CTC, I doubt the dispatcher's display provides sufficient detail for him to tell. He would have most likely seen the block the Metrolink was in (main or siding) as occupied as well as the single-track block on the other other side occupied by the freight. Then the switch "block" would have shown occupied but he's expecting that when the freight reached it - which should have happened one minute later. Given speed variations of trains, it's a stretch to think he would have realized that it's a minute too early to be the freight. But by this point, you're down to 15 seconds anyway. Most likely by this point, they've both seen each other and are both in emergency so it's all laws of physics anyway.