GO Trains To Niagara Falls This Summer!

GO Trains will be running between Toronto and Niagara Falls this summer. More Info here:
http://www.gotransit.com/public/en/news/whatsnew.htm

NS: Good news on GO Transit running trains to Niagara Falls-it is a start.
I feel that GO should eventually take over this line from VIA-except the thru Maple Leaf service to NY State.
With the population growth on the Niagara Peninsula and greater emphasis of Niagara Falls access by rail from Toronto and Hamilton this service has good potential...
MACTRAXX

While I think this is a good thing I don't believe GO taking over this route is such a good idea. As in the past with GO transit
these things have a tendency of not always going as planned. GO ran trains to Casino Rama for a while then decided that it wasn't such a great idea.
Then they ran trains to Guelph again they later decided that this wasn't working out, so who's to say GO will stick it out when it comes
to Niagara Falls? I really don't believe the numbers are there to warrant GO service of the magnitude that GO has announced. To my knowledge
GO had no intention of running 4 trains each way and that it was MPP Jim Bradley who was pushing for this. What if like you say GO does force Via Rail out,
what then happens if GO transit decides there isn't enough traffic to warrant running trains? Niagara falls could have the situation of having no trains at all.
I don't know about you but I have no desire of riding a GO train from Toronto to Niagara Falls and return, it's uncomfortable enough to have to ride one from Hamilton
to Union Station. But don't take my word for it, when Via has run GO trains as substitutes in the past they have offered a 50% travel credit due to the uncomfortable seating
and inconvenience. I'm a firm believer that there is another alternative, something along the lines of a GO/Via train. GO By-level coaches with more comfortable reclining
seats, area's for baggage, bikes, maybe even food service. There's no reason GO couldn't provide the coaches and Via Rail the locomotives, crews and food service.
This way Via could free up coaches for other area's in the corridor and GO wouldn't have to scramble to find more crews they don't have. Also this allows the Federal Government
and Provincial Governments to share the cost of this intercity service. Why does it have to be one way or the other? Maybe it's time someone thought outside the box.

MACTRAXX wrote:NS: Good news on GO Transit running trains to Niagara Falls-it is a start.
I feel that GO should eventually take over this line from VIA-except the thru Maple Leaf service to NY State.
With the population growth on the Niagara Peninsula and greater emphasis of Niagara Falls access by rail from Toronto and Hamilton this service has good potential...
MACTRAXX

VIAHogger: Interesting opinion on proposed GO service to the Niagara Peninsula-I am surprised that GO would just pull out of a designated service as you mentioned like service to Guelph.
For a distance of 84 miles-no longer then going to points on Eastern Long Island (Hampton Bays and Mattituck are similar distances from NYP) on the LIRR's C3s-I do understand that certain riders would pay extra for more luxurious VIA Rail service but there are many that are price-concious who would be satistfied with GO equipment.
I noticed that VIA has restored the 3-train schedule-can the line warrant even more VIA service if it were provided? Those new trains like #694 are a start..
In closing I hope all parties agree on good rail service for the Niagara Peninsula!
MACTRAXX

GO transit did just that, though times have changed and I hope they wouldn't simply pull out if things don't work out. For GO transit it's all about the numbers, if there's not enough riders
as was the situation for the GO trains to Guelph then the trains don't make any sense. The fact that GO transit's fare will be half what it costs to ride Via will I'm sure increase passenger counts.
However there are only so many that will want to ride a GO train that distance on a daily basis, it's just too bad because there are other alternatives it's just that no one is considering them. As you said
Via is once again running the extra train this year along with the regular trains (Amtrak and overnight commuter train) With all these GO trains running from Toronto to Niagara Falls I would expect
Via's business to pretty well dry up...I hope I'm wrong and that both services will flourish. Part of the reason Via Rail made no changes to their schedules was because GO transit wasn't sure when the service would begin. First it was May 1st then near the end of May, then June 1 now their saying the end of June! I should also add that Via Rail ticket agents in Niagara Falls and St Catharines have been both told they will be selling GO tickets?? It really makes me wonder what's in it for Via Rail, why would you help GO take customers away from you?

MACTRAXX wrote:VIAHogger: Interesting opinion on proposed GO service to the Niagara Peninsula-I am surprised that GO would just pull out of a designated service as you mentioned like service to Guelph.
For a distance of 84 miles-no longer then going to points on Eastern Long Island (Hampton Bays and Mattituck are similar distances from NYP) on the LIRR's C3s-I do understand that certain riders would pay extra for more luxurious VIA Rail service but there are many that are price-concious who would be satistfied with GO equipment.
I noticed that VIA has restored the 3-train schedule-can the line warrant even more VIA service if it were provided? Those new trains like #694 are a start..
In closing I hope all parties agree on good rail service for the Niagara Peninsula!
MACTRAXX

viahogger wrote:GO ran trains to Casino Rama for a while then decided that it wasn't such a great idea.

Not quite. The service, which lasted one summer, was run by Casino Rama and operated by CN, using GO equipment. This service, like the planned GO service to Niagara, ran on weekends only. Then, like now, GO didn't have enough equipment available to spare for weekday trips.

As far as pulling out of Guelph goes, GO continued to serve there by bus after the trains were cut back to Georgetown.

Ken V wrote: Not quite. The service, which lasted one summer, was run by Casino Rama and operated by CN, using GO equipment. This service, like the planned GO service to Niagara, ran on weekends only. Then, like now, GO didn't have enough equipment available to spare for weekday trips. As far as pulling out of Guelph goes, GO continued to serve there by bus after the trains were cut back to Georgetown.

Your right I should have remembered that. While I'm sure there was equipment shortages and GO may not have been able to come up with
any spare equipment for CN to use for Casino Rama's service it was also not a very popular service from what I remember. I don't recall what
the numbers were like for GO when they ran trains to Guelph but I'm sure they weren't running packed to the rafters trains. Enough passengers
for GO to warrant bus service but perhaps not enough to justify rail service? My point is these announcements are very flippant, here today
gone tomorrow whether due to low ridership or political motives or other factors like equipment and capacity constraints... etc.
To me improving service between Hamilton and Oshawa and perhaps increasing it to service every 30 or 20 minutes is
far more important then extending service to Niagara Falls or other medium distance locations ie Kitchener, Cobourg etc etc.

I'm actually surprised Via Rail hasn't decided to cancel it's summer service 93/94 because if the GO train does catch on and it only needs to carry
a few passengers to cut into Via's traffic base then Via will be running an empty train. If that is the case then Via will more then likely not run
these trains next summer......it will be interesting to see how things unfold this summer.

I've riden the Maple Leaf across the border a few times, but wasn't paying attention to the surroundings:

How difficult is it for a passenger (on foot of course) getting off of a VIA/Empire Service train on one side of the border to get to a continuing VIA/Empire Serive train on the other side of the border? It seemed to be a matter of a few hundred feet, as opposed to the mile(s) between the Detroit/Windsor connection.

For selfish reasons that would be great for me.

I once took the Maple Leaf from Toronto to New York (Croton-Harmon). I would never do it again because of the 2 1/2 hours we spent stopped at the border crossing while U.S. Customs did their thing. Not only the delay but the way the Customs stop was done in a very overhanded intimidating way. The agent who boarded our coach was an oaf. The young man sitting next to me -- a Toronto resident who'd just graduated college and was going to visit an Uncle in New York City on a tourist visa -- was taken off the train by U.S. Customs. The Customs agent said he did not "believe" the young man was going to New York City for vacation as he said, but to "seek employment." The young man was very upset and it was terrible to see the way he was treated. Even if he had been treated with some courtesy (which he wasn't), to see U.S. Customs treat a Canadian citizen with such suspicion (Canada's one of our best friends!) was very depressing.

Last Fall my girlfriend and I crossed the border from Niagara Falls NY to Niagara Falls ON and return by taxi. The border stop took a few seconds.

So if I go again I'd ride GO to Niagara Falls ON, then take a cab to the Amtrak station in Niagara Falls NY.

Btw, the Amtrak station is on the eastern outskirts of Niagara Falls, a long long way from the border.

Scoring Guy wrote:How difficult is it for a passenger (on foot of course) getting off of a VIA/Empire Service train on one side of the border to get to a continuing VIA/Empire Serive train on the other side of the border?

I think it would depend on how much luggage you have for one thing.

My experience crossing the border is, they ask you where you're coming from and where you're headed. If you say you got off the Maple Leaf in Ontario to catch the train in New York you're probably going to be detained I would think. U.S. Customs is not going to like that. Not that they'd throw you in jail or anything like that, but they'll probably be suspicous enough to do a full search and inquiry.

That's why I'd take GO Transit. I could honestly say, the train I took does not cross the border and I'm headed for Amtrak.

Btw it's about a forty dollar taxi ride from the Via Station in Niagara Falls Ont. to the Amtrak station in Niagara Falls NY. So the money I'll save by using GO transit will pay my cab (or part of it).

Scoring Guy wrote:I've riden the Maple Leaf across the border a few times, but wasn't paying attention to the surroundings:

How difficult is it for a passenger (on foot of course) getting off of a VIA/Empire Service train on one side of the border to get to a continuing VIA/Empire Serive train on the other side of the border? It seemed to be a matter of a few hundred feet, as opposed to the mile(s) between the Detroit/Windsor connection.

Pain in the neck. The bridge crossing used by the train is not open to pedestrians and is not open to most cars, only to "NEXUS pass holders", so you may have to detour to a different bridge.

On top of that, the NY station is quite a long distance from the river, although it is supposed to move very close to the river when funding is found.

I suppose someone could buy a single minibus, get a bus license and a NEXUS pass, and run a profitable operation shuttling people between the two trains. I wonder if the taxicabs have NEXUS passes.

nexus would not work for a bus.. If i recall it pertains to a car and A driver, unless all the passengers in that car also have a nexus pass to scan. if you scanned your nexus for yourself and had other people in the car not on nexus, I'm sure you'd in some trouble for using the nexus lanes...

a few thoughts. The GO fare seemed lowballed to attract business compared to prices on regular GO commuter routes which smacked of political intervention by the aforementioned Jim Bradley. GO probably ran up the operating costs by their inability (or lack of effort) to break up 10 car trainsets into more managable 5 car sets for this service which would have more than served the average passenger load. Delays were incurred because of unanticipated
shipping traffic at the Welland Canal crossing and by the single tracking of parts of the Grimsby Sub over the last few years. Patrons were frustrated by having to transfer to a city bus for the last two miles of the trip to the Falls proper.
Coach Canada complained that the highly subidized service was cutting into one of their few profitable routes (St. Catharines-Niagara) and shortly thereafter dropped their Hamilton-Guelph service totally saying that GO's intrusion into Niagara meant they could no longer do the unprofitable routes like the Hamilton-Guelph Service. GO hasn't reacted at all (by taking over this route) which can only mean the members of the provincial legislature on that route are not members of the government currently in power.
Reaction from the Niagara Peninsula is mixed. A number of folks, especially retirees, moved to Niagara to get away from the GTA. They don't want GO service changing their area into just another continuation of the urban sprawl that exists from Oshawa thru to Hamilton.
Currently Coach Canada's Niagara route seems to be keeping its' head about water as travel time to downtown Toronto is quite a bit faster than the GO daily service which has connecting buses meet
Lakeshore trains at the Burlington GO station.
Oddly too, the St. Catharines stop is at the Fairview Mall rather than the VIA depot or St. Catharine bus depot.

miklin wrote: Reaction from the Niagara Peninsula is mixed. A number of folks, especially retirees, moved to Niagara to get away from the GTA. They don't want GO service changing their area into just another continuation of the urban sprawl that exists from Oshawa thru to Hamilton.

and do these people think that not having a train will help prevent highways to encroach? As a good foamer I believe highways will generate worse urban sprawl than any passenger rail will.

not really as it is probably the best agricultural land in Canada-highways will not be expanded-no where to build them. Making it too easy to get to Toronto only encourages sprawl.