Finally New Walthers HO Amfleets are on the way!!

When I said the prices were impractical I wasn't exclusively talking about the Amfleets, more all $75 passenger cars as a whole. And while I do agree with you that the prices are also undesireable I still think they are not practical. Kyle, I'm not trying to bash you in any way so please don't take it that way. I am a big fan of your website and your modeling. It's great for you that you have been saving up for these Amfleets and that they are in your budget. But unfortunately for a lot of us it is just not practical right now to spend $750 on a train that doesn't even include a locomotive. I read your whole post and it made some good points but I still think that for a lot of modelers prices like this are not practical for their budget. And I also agree with green_elite_cab when he said that it is hard when they give you a 3 month limited run and you either have to spend a fortune all at once or pass them up. I like the way that Bachmann offers the Acela where they keep running it, making some improvements (like DCC) along the way. That way people can buy the train when they want it and they have the money. Like Kyle has said many times, Walthers spent a lot on the tooling. It seems like a waste to me to have a short run. It would seem more worthwhile if they put them out on the market for a while. It's not like they wouldn't sell after 3 months. Look at how old the previous Amfleets were and they sold up to the very end. It also gives people a chance to build up their fleet. On these new Amfleets phase IVb will be a very welcome addition to the lineup (assuming that it is done). Don't get me wrong, I will definitely buy some of these Amfleets and support the cause. But I will also try hard to find a good deal and do a lot of saving up between that time and now. Sorry for making you guys read so much. Haha

acelaphillies wrote:When I said the prices were impractical I wasn't exclusively talking about the Amfleets, more all $75 passenger cars as a whole. And while I do agree with you that the prices are also undesireable I still think they are not practical. Kyle, I'm not trying to bash you in any way so please don't take it that way. I am a big fan of your website and your modeling. It's great for you that you have been saving up for these Amfleets and that they are in your budget. But unfortunately for a lot of us it is just not practical right now to spend $750 on a train that doesn't even include a locomotive. I read your whole post and it made some good points but I still think that for a lot of modelers prices like this are not practical for their budget. And I also agree with green_elite_cab when he said that it is hard when they give you a 3 month limited run and you either have to spend a fortune all at once or pass them up. I like the way that Bachmann offers the Acela where they keep running it, making some improvements (like DCC) along the way. That way people can buy the train when they want it and they have the money. Like Kyle has said many times, Walthers spent a lot on the tooling. It seems like a waste to me to have a short run. It would seem more worthwhile if they put them out on the market for a while. It's not like they wouldn't sell after 3 months. Look at how old the previous Amfleets were and they sold up to the very end. It also gives people a chance to build up their fleet. On these new Amfleets phase IVb will be a very welcome addition to the lineup (assuming that it is done). Don't get me wrong, I will definitely buy some of these Amfleets and support the cause. But I will also try hard to find a good deal and do a lot of saving up between that time and now. Sorry for making you guys read so much. Haha

Sorry if I came across as harsh, not my intention. I didn't even see it as bashing so no offense taken . I've always understood and sympathized with the sticker shock. If I didn't, I wouldn't bother responding. I've been paying close attention to Walthers' pricing over the years and so I've used that as a basis for speculating the potential cost of new Amfleets. That's how I "budgeted" for them but I have not met the target yet. This is the one good thing about the phase IVb Amfleets not being released first for me in that it gives me additional time to meet that financial target to fill the quantities I'd like to have.

I've tried (perhaps not as vocally as I could ) to hint at others to brace for the sticker shock should a re-tooled ever be announced/released. I've noticed others had speculated that as well. Believe it or not, when I say the cars are "in my budget" that only means that I'm sacrificing stuff that is readily available today so that I can have what I really want later. This has been a multi-year effort. I've seen a few good deals on some great items that I've had to exercise extreme discipline and pass up on. What will "kill" me is if METRA and VRE Nippon Shayros, and re-tooled/improved Viewliners were announced (in general) in the same time frame. I'd find that to be a bitter-sweet announcement(s).

I initially misread what the two of you meant. I agree with both of you that $75 could be impractical for many smaller budgets. Before I started working, $75/car was not that practical for me either (even if it was RTR). Even $21.98/$24.98 per car was BARELY practical at the time.

If you look at the MSRP of the Bachmann Amfleets, they actually retail for $48 each. I have more of a problem with that than the Walthers cars because I think they're fairly crude in comparison (even with lighted interiors). The Bachmann cars were actually the more expensive ones and that was after tooling up a more crude model than what had previously been offered and their paint job (IMO) was lackluster in comparison to Walthers. Bachmann cost virtually twice as much as Walthers' older cars (but in their defense they had more features but personally they didn't "impress" me enough to switch over).

It's becoming harder and harder to compare Walthers and Bachmann for many reasons. One of the obvious reasons is that Bachmann has a huge hand in the entry-level market. They have an increasingly more generic appeal. Bachmann has the capacity to constantly crank out the same model without feeling the affect of their products not moving. Also compare how often Bachmann is announcing completely new products vs Walthers. Bachmann would have to stop running an existing line that they continually crank out in order to free up a production slot for a new product.

I'm sure there will be plenty of future re-issues of the Walthers Amfleet as it would be in their best interest to have the capability to do so. As long as the tool is in good shape they can always re-run it. Making the product repeatedly available will help re-coup costs and ultimately make a profit (they just may not regularly run it). I've read that in general, a successful first run covers your costs and its the second run that covers profits. It's limited run now but they could always bring it back out. They say this to let the market know that they've got other priorities for newer products and so they can't tie-up their production line slots with the same product that has a diminishing rate of return for years. They shorten the production window so that newer products can be brought to the market and so if you're unable or unwilling to jump on board this go-'round, you'll have to wait for the next run (whenever that may be).

mlrr wrote:I'm sure there will be plenty of future re-issues of the Walthers Amfleet as it would be in their best interest to have the capability to do so. As long as the tool is in good shape they can always re-run it. Making the product repeatedly available will help re-coup costs and ultimately make a profit (they just may not regularly run it). I've read that in general, a successful first run covers your costs and its the second run that covers profits. It's limited run now but they could always bring it back out. They say this to let the market know that they've got other priorities for newer products and so they can't tie-up their production line slots with the same product that has a diminishing rate of return for years. They shorten the production window so that newer products can be brought to the market and so if you're unable or unwilling to jump on board this go-'round, you'll have to wait for the next run (whenever that may be).

Kyle, I'd bet the house that you're right about that. "Limited run" is the terminology in use now, but even the older Walthers passenger cars were released in production runs spaced every few years or so. We know that the big locomotive manufacturers will do multiple runs of particular models, either with new/different roads or road numbers, and sometimes even re-runs the same roads and numbers. I can't possibly imagine that anyone who doesn't grab some Phase II Amfleet Is or Phase III Amfleet IIs from this production run won't ever have another chance; it may be a few years and the price may have ticked up another $5 or $10 (or $15 or $20...), but I'm sure they will be available.

That said, I wholeheartedly concur that at these prices, it's perfectly fine with me for Walthers to stagger the releases of different paint schemes! I model 2000-2001, so I need A-I cars in Phase III, Phase IV, and Acela (Phase V) schemes and A-II in Phases III and IV. I've owned a fleet of over 40 cars from the earlier tooling, and even if I sold every last one of them at, say, $20 per, that barely covers the cost of what I need just in re-tooled Phase III Amfleet II cars to replace them! So, yeah, I feel the budget strain, but at the same time, having a defined modeling era and a reasonable limit on what my layout can actually handle in terms of volume does help keep the bank from being completely emptied!!

If you could wait a couple of years,the cars could be on sale at Walters,on pg 18 of the current "flyer"(07/12)
some of the "20th Century Ltd" cars are now around the $40.00 level. Orig price was around $70.00.
The same price drop happened with the orig "Super Chief"run.

Hi everyone, first post but I have been googling this thread once a month to try and follow what everyone had to say about these models. Unfortunately I have never been able to model Amtrak on a layout but I collect it somewhat obsessively and always try to pick up new offerings in phase 3-on especially of the more modern(if you will) Northeast Corridor equipment. I don't have all that is available, but I certainly have a lot. I have seen Kyle's layout or at least a portion of it (which I love) a few times at the Big E fairgrounds show and even talked to him a bit a long time back when the Bachmann Acela set and HHP-8s were just out.

When the retooled Amfleets were announced a few months ago, it was kind of bittersweet for me. I think that they will be beautiful cars if the original Walthers Superliner II run vs. the plated run is any indication (and those aren't even retooled if I am not mistaken), but I definitely won't be able to buy any from this initial run given their price in combination with the wedding planning I am currently in the middle of : )...and I know that first run won't last long. However, I think I will be glad to pick up at least 4 cars for my display case if they do eventually release a phase IVb run when I am in better financial shape. It would probably be harder to justify their price if I was actually modeling these since I would need a lot more than 4, but like a lot of people have said, this pricing is not very different from what I have seen with many of the other brands, even some of the brands whose attempts are a bit more subpar. I just hope that Walthers has at least a couple years of limited runs of these so all of us that really want them will have some kind of chance to get them.

Also, as a few others have mentioned, I have bought 2 Amtrak California Scheme Superliner 1s and a Surfliner Scheme Superliner 1 to support the cause in hopes that they will consider doing the actual Amtrak CA runs some day.

For everyone grumbling about the price, those are retail prices - the cars will most likely be discounted at major resellers.

The reality is, this will represent the first (presumably) real accurate, mass produced Amfleet car. Realistic plating to emulate stainless steel. Gasketed windows. Fine detailing. Accurate body shape. Accurate paint. I have early-Walthers Amfleets. Late-Walthers Amfleets. Bachmann regular Amfleets from the 80s/90s. Bachman Silver Series Amfleets. NONE of them are completely accurate. Only the Bachmann's actually roll (somewhat) decently. Paint is all mixed up. Bachmann botched the lettering on all versions of their new Amfleets. Walthers versions don't roll very well. Their couplers were garbage.

I plan to replace a good number of my old Amfleets with these. I've spent years building my layout, and after all that work, I want good rolling stock on the rails. It's the reason why you see people shelling out a lot of money for custom brass. You put a lot of sweat into a layout, you want a high level of detail in the equipment on the tracks. It's part of the price of model railroading. These cars are not targeting people who throw a ring of track onto a piece of plywood and call it a layout. They are targeting serious modelers.

JamesRR wrote:These cars are not targeting people who throw a ring of track onto a piece of plywood and call it a layout. They are targeting serious modelers.

Thats a silly statement. It might have been legitimate if you implied that they are targetting people who want more features in an Amfleet.

Layout size and style have no bearing on who buys what, and whether or not they are "Serious" modelers. Besides, one could easily just say that people who just plunk down RTR models and "built up" structures with zero personal effort aren't really serious modelers either, they're just playing with trains.

green_elite_cab wrote:

JamesRR wrote:These cars are not targeting people who throw a ring of track onto a piece of plywood and call it a layout. They are targeting serious modelers.

Thats a silly statement. It might have been legitimate if you implied that they are targetting people who want more features in an Amfleet.

Layout size and style have no bearing on who buys what, and whether or not they are "Serious" modelers. Besides, one could easily just say that people who just plunk down RTR models and "built up" structures with zero personal effort aren't really serious modelers either, they're just playing with trains.

I think you're reading his comment the wrong way (although I probably wouldn't have phrased it that way either). He's not implying that at all. He's meerly stating that Walthers is targeting modelers who have high standards when it comes to detail on rollingstock/locomotives and since the older Walthers Amfleets will likely be "toy like" in comparison, these newer models will appeal to those who demand accuracy. I was dissapointed in Bachmann's re-tooled Amfleet back in the early 2000's. Imagine my reaction to the current Walthers Amfleets if they came out with that today?

As a side note, I've chuckled at a few online YouTube reviews of models where you'd hear stuff to the affect of:

'...his, that and the other thing is completely wrong but it's still pretty cool'

(LOL, reallly?! It really ends up being someone who is really excited about getting this new model and puts it on YouTube).

James RR is referring to that crowd (unless I'm mistaken) when he refers to the ring of track. After all, lets be real. We all started with a ring of track at some point (some of us on carpet). When I was sharing some of my first custom paint jobs, my layout was still on carpet. It wasn't until 2008 that I actually had benchwork. That didn't stop me from holding manufacturers to a REASONABLY high standard (I'm not a rivet counter but as long as the model itself is close, the small fine details are secondary but MUCH appreciated ).

Up until Walthers retired the Amfleets, I just as well assumed that we were "stuck" with what we already had and so I settled on the idea/fact that that was the best we had to work with even though the quality of the newer stuff was getting ridiculous (in a good way ). So even though in the back of my head I was saying "man I wish the Amfleets were of that caliber" I didn't expect it but when the old tooling was retired, that's when I saw the opportunity to jump on it. I commend walthers for doing this because given that it is virtually a staple for them, it wouldn't make any sense NOT to upgrade the model, even if that meant starting from scratch as they are doing now.

mlrr wrote:

green_elite_cab wrote:

JamesRR wrote:These cars are not targeting people who throw a ring of track onto a piece of plywood and call it a layout. They are targeting serious modelers.

Thats a silly statement. It might have been legitimate if you implied that they are targetting people who want more features in an Amfleet.

Layout size and style have no bearing on who buys what, and whether or not they are "Serious" modelers. Besides, one could easily just say that people who just plunk down RTR models and "built up" structures with zero personal effort aren't really serious modelers either, they're just playing with trains.

I think you're reading his comment the wrong way (although I probably wouldn't have phrased it that way either). He's not implying that at all. He's meerly stating that Walthers is targeting modelers who have high standards when it comes to detail on rollingstock/locomotives and since the older Walthers Amfleets will likely be "toy like" in comparison, these newer models will appeal to those who demand accuracy.

Fair enough.

Still, I don't think that high accuracy requires high cost. To me,as long as something is dimensionally accurate, I can probably go ahead and make whatever modifications I need to make it more realistic. I might prefer properly proprotioned boxcar that lacks detail than paying 5 times as much for the same car with all the fancy stuff already applied.

I was dissapointed in Bachmann's re-tooled Amfleet back in the early 2000's. Imagine my reaction to the current Walthers Amfleets if they came out with that today?

As a side note, I've chuckled at a few online YouTube reviews of models where you'd hear stuff to the affect of:

'...his, that and the other thing is completely wrong but it's still pretty cool'

(LOL, reallly?! It really ends up being someone who is really excited about getting this new model and puts it on YouTube).

I think I know who you're talking about, those are always fun. They never quite seem to figure out how to use the Macro function on the camera either, lol.

James RR is referring to that crowd (unless I'm mistaken) when he refers to the ring of track. After all, lets be real. We all started with a ring of track at some point (some of us on carpet). When I was sharing some of my first custom paint jobs, my layout was still on carpet. It wasn't until 2008 that I actually had benchwork. That didn't stop me from holding manufacturers to a REASONABLY high standard (I'm not a rivet counter but as long as the model itself is close, the small fine details are secondary but MUCH appreciated ).

Up until Walthers retired the Amfleets, I just as well assumed that we were "stuck" with what we already had and so I settled on the idea/fact that that was the best we had to work with even though the quality of the newer stuff was getting ridiculous (in a good way ). So even though in the back of my head I was saying "man I wish the Amfleets were of that caliber" I didn't expect it but when the old tooling was retired, that's when I saw the opportunity to jump on it. I commend walthers for doing this because given that it is virtually a staple for them, it wouldn't make any sense NOT to upgrade the model, even if that meant starting from scratch as they are doing now.

Well, I sure hope that the claims the prices will fall eventually turn out to be true, and that they don't all dry up immeadiately.

The only thing I really want to know about are these new trucks.

The new trucks are supposed to include the brake detail as well as being lubricated at the factory (I can't tell you how many times folks don't read my post about applying conductalube to the axle bearings to get the current Walthers cars to roll better). Seems like Walthers is taking it upon themselves to do it for folks since many fail to even read the instructions that tell them to lube the axles.

The current trucks are bare minimum for functionality. If I could get THOSE to work with a bit of lube I could only imagine how much more free rolling the new trucks will be. I wouldn't be surprised if the truck's functional design caused headaches over in development.

Funny, if the Amfleets are causing this much of a discussion concerning price, could you imagine what the conversation will be like when/if Athearn updates their P42 or F59PHI to the Genesis line with DCC & Sound?...LOL.

mlrr wrote:The new trucks are supposed to include the brake detail as well as being lubricated at the factory (I can't tell you how many times folks don't read my post about applying conductalube to the axle bearings to get the current Walthers cars to roll better). Seems like Walthers is taking it upon themselves to do it for folks since many fail to even read the instructions that tell them to lube the axles.

The current trucks are bare minimum for functionality. If I could get THOSE to work with a bit of lube I could only imagine how much more free rolling the new trucks will be. I wouldn't be surprised if the truck's functional design caused headaches over in development.

The break detail is nice, but I'm more concerned with running characteristics. How much of an improvement are the new trucks?


I myself use a very small amount of light oil (Labelle 108, I think), and this doesn't seem to spray onto the tracks or wheels to any signficant degree. I have not heard of "conductalube", but it sounds fairly self explanitory. I also make sure to keep the metal tabs way from the axles (bending them just enough that they don't quite touch the axles, yet won't let them fall out).

I also am frustrated with other people concerning the lubrication of Walther's inside bearing trucks. Wheel resistance is the single most detrimental part of the Amfleet and Commuter cars. The wheel resistance can make funning "push" style commuter trains impossible (the cars bunch up and push off the rails since they resist so much), and can severely hold up small locomotives like the AEM7 and ALP44.

Unfortuneately, I have a hard time convincing others of this fact. Several people insist upon adding weight to these cars, which is not only unnecessary, but actually worsens the problem since now the axles are REALLY pressing against the trucks.

At my train club, they are wary of any Amtrak car with inside-frame trucks, and some are convinced they are poor performers, when in reality, all they need is some good maitenance.

B44NYC wrote:Funny, if the Amfleets are causing this much of a discussion concerning price, could you imagine what the conversation will be like when/if Athearn updates their P42 or F59PHI to the Genesis line with DCC & Sound?...LOL.

Well, apart from locomotives being somewhat more justifiable for price, The reality is they won't be complaining because it will be a wasted effort. They'll already be broke from amfleets.

How many of us have previously bought Walthers Amfleets or Horizon cars and had to "tinker" with them to make them look more accurate or run correctly?

I figured my cost to get ONE of the original Walthers Horizon or Amfleet car to look/run correctly (replacement wheelsets, rubber diaphragms, Kadee couplers, weights, wires & red LEDs for end of car lighting) and I paid MORE than what Walthers is asking for one brand new retooled car!

But I tell you what bothers me more....knowing that Walthers will give these completely new Amfleet cars their best effort to be prototypically correct, and something is bound to be wrong with them.

And of course, somebody is bound to make a small fortune on replacement/upgrade parts to make them look more "prototypically correct" because the market demands it.

I think you're being a bit too pessimistic. In Walthers defense, remember that they inherited the current tooling from another manufacturer. This new tooling is all Walthers so they're "on the hook" this time around.

Green_Elite_Cab,

I think you overlooked my statement in my earlier post:

mlrr wrote:...being lubricated at the factory (I can't tell you how many times folks don't read my post about applying conductalube to the axle bearings to get the current Walthers cars to roll better). Seems like Walthers is taking it upon themselves to do it for folks since many fail to even read the instructions that tell them to lube the axles.

Green_elite_cab wrote:I myself use a very small amount of light oil (Labelle 108, I think), and this doesn't seem to spray onto the tracks or wheels to any signficant degree. I have not heard of "conductalube", but it sounds fairly self explanitory. I also make sure to keep the metal tabs way from the axles (bending them just enough that they don't quite touch the axles, yet won't let them fall out).

I've mentioned conductalube on EVERY POST regarding the subject of the Walthers Amfleet rollability. No one seems to read that on ANY of the forums that I've posted. The few folks that emailed me directly and took my advice have followed up having been satisfied by the results. Atlas makes a tube of it as well as other companies. The needle applicator allows you to apply it in the appropriate spots. They roll just fine after that. Now that you've acknowledged that you've read that part of my post, I expect you to retract future statements about how nothing works to improve Amfleet rollability.

Oh and as for the metal tabs, no need to bend them. just loosen the screw that holds them in place. Sometimes that ALONE (without lubrication) makes a HUGE difference, ESPECIALLY on the later runs (I've mentioned this too, several times).

Alex Stroshane has shared (again; on numerous occasions) more involved ways to not only improve the rollability but the prototypical appearance of the wheels (new, modified wheelsets of course).

Yes folks have had to tinker with the Amfleets in the past but it's not like there weren't solutions. As long as there is a solution for the problem that doesn't require significant, extra costs, I won't gripe about it but if its a problem that can't be fixed without having to go back to the drawing board then expect me to be very vocal about it.

It's disappoints me that folks who ask for a more accurate Amfleet will also bash the new product before it is released. What incentive does that give manufacturers to honor the request of Amtrak modelers in the future? Give the stuff a chance.