Do fallen flags still exist (on paper)???

I think everybody's had a piece of Six Flags in the past 30 years. Anheuser Busch, Time Warner, etc. I think, but I'm not sure, that it's publicly traded now.

I'll look it up later...

Hello all,

Well, I don't believe American Premier Underwriters has any interests in Six Flags. However, they may insure it !! ....

What I remembered most (and found most interesting) from the reading the wreck of the Penn Central was the Pennsylvania's interest in Madision Square Garden. To think that the RR was involved at one point (albeit, just as a minority interest holder in the Garden) with the NY Knicks and NY Rangers is pretty amazing.

What I always wondered was how the various interests in New York came together to doom the old Penn Station. Well, that's a matter for a thread of its own.

Anyway, getting back to the subject of this thread. Does anybody know if any of the various component railroad subsidiaries still exist. In particular, the following:

Allentown Terminal Railroad:

I know that Conrail in the mid 1990's abolished the separate ATR jobs, folding them somehow into the regular Conrail structure, and I assumed eliminated the separate corporate structure as well.

Durham and Southern:

Many years ago, a CSX predessor leased this line down south. One of those 999 year deals railroads used to do way back when. I believe CSX still leases most of the original system, although I understand some of the line may have been abandoned.

For those interested in locomotive history, with the D&S lease, Seaboard got all four of the D&S's non dynamic brake equipped GP 38's. I believe CSX today still rosters all four of them. I have come to understand they are the only non dynamic brake equipped GP 38's on the CSX system. I have been told, however, they still belong to, and are listed as assets of, the Durham and Southern Railroad, at least on paper, to this day!

The New York and Long Branch Railroad.

I would love to know what happened to the corporate shell of this unique joint PRR and CNJ operation. I always wanted to get a chance to talk with NJT's Bill Herkner about what became of this corporate structure. Alas sadly, I won't ever get the chance to. However, if anybody out there knows, or can recall its fate, I'm sure we all would love to hear the story here.

Well, that's all for now folks.....

See ya all later....

http://www.sixflags.com

Based in Oklahoma City, Six Flags has put itself up for sale following a bid from minority owner Daniel Snyder.


Under the 1960s rules then applicable in NYC, PRR had to pay substantial taxes on its Penn Station. Demolishing the terminal and putting up the new complex made them eligible for several years of tax abatement. It also allowed the railroad to take a step up in basis for their minority share in the new business since a small interest in the new complex was worth more than the entire book value of the old terminal

A few notes:

Grand Central Terminal is owned by the New York & Harlem Railroad, with still exists and its shares trade maybe once or twice a year. My understanding is the GCT lease was for 999 years with about 880 or so to go. 95% of NY&H was owned by PC and is now owned by its successors.

Reading is now known as Reading Entertainment. Most of its assets are movie theaters in Australia and New Zealand.

The Lehigh & Hudson River was completely liquidated in 1982. All of the creditors were paid off in full and the stockholders got decent money for their stock.

There are still a few leased lines that you can buy stock in. The easiest is the Pittsburgh & West Virginia, which trades on the American Stock Exchange for about $9.00 a share. I own stock in the Dayton & Michigan (leased to CSX) and the Mobile & Birmingham (leased to NS). The Rutland & Whitehall still exists as a leased company which stock out there.

I know that the Dover & Rockaway and the Mt. Hope Mineral Railroad still existed at least until the late 1980's. I believe some of the stockholders were still fighting with CNJ and Conrail over how much their companies were worth.

njmidland wrote:A few notes:

Grand Central Terminal is owned by the New York & Harlem Railroad, with still exists and its shares trade maybe once or twice a year. My understanding is the GCT lease was for 999 years with about 880 or so to go. 95% of NY&H was owned by PC and is now owned by its successors.

The real estate interests of PennCentral largely went into American Premier Underwriters, so NY&H is under their control. I don't have my Moody's handy, but I'm comfortable in asserting that.

I believe there's a deal between the APU and MTA/MetroNorth for a purchase option on GCT within the next decade. They hammered it out before MTA invested all the money in GCT improvements. The alternative was NY condemning the station under eminent domain, which wasn't attractive to APU.

The alternative was NY condemning the station under eminent domain

They can still do that despite it being an historic landmark? (recalling NYP's fate)

It's totally weird that these RR companies are now insurance and real estate firms.

It is true that Reading Co now owns huge movie theaters in Australia. In fact, their logo is a film strip. But the cross sections of the film strip are railroad ties. This was done on purpose.

I don't think these are really the *same* companies though. I think during bankrupcty, investors bought huge chunks of shares real cheap with the purpose of salvaging what little non-rr assets the companies had. I doubt its the same shareholders and board of dirs as was in the rr days.

Think about it like this. Walmart goes bankrupt and their stock plummets to $1 a share. You buy up a ton of it and get 51% of the company. The gov't steps in and takes all Walmart's dept. stores away, but the company still exists and owns the parking lots and warehouses. That type of deal.

Oh and as for huge cinemas...not a good idea. As most people know Hollywood is in a slump this year but for the past 5 years or so, most huge movie theater companies like Regal and Lowes have been financially broke. This is why when you go to Lowes the theater entrance floor is used for advertising new cars and there are 20 minutes of commercials before the movie starts.

Irish Chieftain wrote:

The alternative was NY condemning the station under eminent domain

They can still do that despite it being an historic landmark? (recalling NYP's fate)

Sure they can. NYP wasn't a landmark. In fact, its demise brought about the creation of the NYC Landmarks preservation Commission. IIRC, the eminent domain aspect of GCT was so the state could gain control of it to protect its investment.

Don31 wrote:

Irish Chieftain wrote:

The alternative was NY condemning the station under eminent domain

They can still do that despite it being an historic landmark? (recalling NYP's fate)

Sure they can. NYP wasn't a landmark. In fact, its demise brought about the creation of the NYC Landmarks preservation Commission. IIRC, the eminent domain aspect of GCT was so the state could gain control of it to protect its investment.

Don is correct.

I'd also affirm that eminent domain doesn't imply destruction, in this scenario it would preserve the building.

carajul wrote:It's totally weird that these RR companies are now insurance and real estate firms.

It is true that Reading Co now owns huge movie theaters in Australia. In fact, their logo is a film strip. But the cross sections of the film strip are railroad ties. This was done on purpose.

I don't think these are really the *same* companies though. I think during bankrupcty, investors bought huge chunks of shares real cheap with the purpose of salvaging what little non-rr assets the companies had. I doubt its the same shareholders and board of dirs as was in the rr days.

Think about it like this. Walmart goes bankrupt and their stock plummets to $1 a share. You buy up a ton of it and get 51% of the company. The gov't steps in and takes all Walmart's dept. stores away, but the company still exists and owns the parking lots and warehouses. That type of deal.

Well, see for yourself at Reading Cinemas' corporate info page

They do still operate in the US, by the way:

In the United States, Reading operate arthouse cinemas under the 'Angelika Film Center & Café' in New York, Dallas and Houston.

Here is an interesting link I just found:

http://www3.uakron.edu/archival/ErieLack/erie1.htm

""The Erie Lackawanna Collection at The University of Akron is primarily legal and financial in nature. It consists of materials used and produced throughout the Railroad's final reorganization and liquidation process which began in 1972 and ended in 1991. Included are a large number of Interstate Commerce Commission valuation maps, real estate sales files, land agreements, leases, mortgages, conveyance documents, and other legal and financial materials. There are also board minutes, annual reports, and reports to the ICC.""


Erie Lackawanna Reorganization/Liquidation, 1972-1991
http://www3.uakron.edu/archival/ErieLack/series-g.htm

from here:

http://www3.uakron.edu/archival/ErieLack/Hist.htm

I'm about three weeks late, but I finally drove through Norwood in daylight yesterday, the For Sale sign's still there on the east side of the ROW, and it says contact Penn Central Real Estate at a New York City address, but the phone number was partially painted over.

rvrrhs wrote:They do still operate in the US, by the way:

In the United States, Reading operate arthouse cinemas under the 'Angelika Film Center & Café' in New York, Dallas and Houston.

The modern multiplex movie theater in Manville, New Jersey, about a mile or two from the airport where I keep my plane so I pass it regularly, is named the "Reading Cinema." I always thought it was named that because it is immediately adjacent to the ex-Reading NJ mainline. Now I know the "rest of the story." I'd venture a guess that the theater is located on land once owned by the Reading Railroad.

There was an article in the Trenton Times today that states that American Premier Underwriters is successor to Penn Central

HAMILTON - As the second round of cleanup is set to begin at the former W.R. Grace & Co. Zonolite plant, financially strapped site owner Amtrak will have to foot the bill.

The federal Environmental Protection Agency ordered Amtrak and American Premier Underwriters, the successor to the Penn Central Railroad, have been ordered to pay for the cleanup under the Superfund law.

Amtrak officials estimate the cost of the second and final round at roughly $1 million. From late 2003 to April 2004, 9,000 tons of dirt was hauled off the site under EPA supervision, at a cost of $1.4 million that was split 50/50 by the two corporations.

http://www.nj.com/news/times/index.ssf? ... xml&coll=5