CR on the Southern Secondary

R&DB wrote: ↑Fri Nov 20, 2020 12:35 pm Builders General made a deal with Conrail to have their rail deliveries go to Freehold and move them from Freehold to Little Silver and Toms River by truck. Part of the deal was Conrail was to defray part of the cost of trucking. NJT was very happy with the deal as it eliminated the last Conrail customer on the Coast Line.

I knew this was the reason for the Tom's River location, didn't know about the Little Silver location.

@CoastLineRailfan Transit hasn't banned any engines they have from coming here because none of their engines weigh more than 263,000 pounds. Their heaviest engine is the PL42 which weighs in at 262,000 pounds.

Aside from places that need door-to-door service, I can't see why these places wouldn't want rail service seeing as how trains can bring in more materials at a cheaper price than trucks.

Rail sidings can be a bit pricey, but that's part of the reason why transloading exists. It allows rail cars to be loaded an unloaded on existing tracks, alleviating the need for a new siding. Plus, putting a switch in wouldn't be THAT much of a hassle. It can be put in overnight with a good crew, which would also mean less delays.

Transloading can be done using only two tracks in Bay Head. One to park cars on, and another for the train to sit. All remaining tracks can still be used by NJT. Plus, those abandoned cars won't be there forever. There was another document from NJT saying that they were gonna scrap those whenever they have the time.

@R&DB Makes sense that would make Transit happy seeing as how they don't any freight down here.

Bracdude181 wrote: ↑Fri Nov 20, 2020 1:00 pm @CoastLineRailfan Transit hasn't banned any engines they have from coming here because none of their engines weigh more than 263,000 pounds. Their heaviest engine is the PL42 which weighs in at 262,000 pounds.

Aside from places that need door-to-door service, I can't see why these places wouldn't want rail service seeing as how trains can bring in more materials at a cheaper price than trucks.

Rail sidings can be a bit pricey, but that's part of the reason why transloading exists. It allows rail cars to be loaded an unloaded on existing tracks, alleviating the need for a new siding. Plus, putting a switch in wouldn't be THAT much of a hassle. It can be put in overnight with a good crew, which would also mean less delays.

Transloading can be done using only two tracks in Bay Head. One to park cars on, and another for the train to sit. All remaining tracks can still be used by NJT. Plus, those abandoned cars won't be there forever. There was another document from NJT saying that they were gonna scrap those whenever they have the time.

@R&DB Makes sense that would make Transit happy seeing as how they don't any freight down here.

Ya see, rail service doesn't cost a nickle and a dime. The reason so many customers go to trucking is because of the low cost and flexibility, the polar opposite of what the rail service would be.

NJ Transit can't throw down two extra tracks magically, they are really using all of the available yard tracks. As I've said before, Transit will have none of it, and the NIMBYs will have none of it.

The Comet 3s are going to be there for the foreseeable future, at least until they can find a buyer.

@CoastLineRailfan Wait, it's MORE expensive? How?

Ive been told hundreds of times it's cheaper by rail than by truck, (5.6 cents per ton mile by rail vs 15.6 per ton mile by truck) and I have articles that say just that.

Wasn't the affordable shipping prices and the ability to cram lots of material into one car the whole reason why trains are still around today despite the competition from trucks? If trucks are cheaper and more cost effective then why isn't everyone shipping by truck instead of rail? Why does Woodhaven continue to recieve shipments every week by rail if trucks are so much cheaper?

How is Sayreville as a whole still around if trucks are supposedly better?

Bracdude181 wrote: ↑Fri Nov 20, 2020 1:50 pm @CoastLineRailfan Wait, it's MORE expensive? How?

Ive been told hundreds of times it's cheaper by rail than by truck, (5.6 cents per ton mile by rail vs 15.6 per ton mile by truck) and I have articles that say just that.

Wasn't the affordable shipping prices and the ability to cram lots of material into one car the whole reason why trains are still around today despite the competition from trucks? If trucks are cheaper and more cost effective then why isn't everyone shipping by truck instead of rail? Why does Woodhaven continue to recieve shipments every week by rail if trucks are so much cheaper?

How is Sayreville as a whole still around if trucks are supposedly better?

Factoring in the costs for their spur, the price itself, as well as the limited service, yes trucking is better. Take Tulnoy Lumber and OneStop. OneStop gets centerbeams. Tulnoy has it's own spur, but receives truck loads of lumber from OneStop. This is a real thing, if you stop and think about it.

Take Brick, they switched to trucks, and are still in business. They've expressed interest in coming back to rail service, and they definitely can because of the non-existent weight restrictions!!! I see Woodhaven being attracted to rail service because of how much lumber they receive. Having 18 trucks come and deliver something is quite cumbersome, but 18 rail cars is less of a hassle. The customers on the Coast Line don't receive 18 loaded rail cars, and don't need to spend the extra money to set up their service and hike prices to pay for it, instead of opting for a box truck or two as needed. Looking at Google Maps is fun, but taking the business and financial side into account can answer many of your own questions and save the heartache of getting shot down . . .

@CoastLineRailfan Why do you say there's no restriction when there's proof that there is a weight limit between South Amboy Red Bank?

Bracdude181 wrote: ↑Fri Nov 20, 2020 2:28 pm @CoastLineRailfan Why do you say there's no restriction when there's proof that there is a weight limit between South Amboy Red Bank?

Ok, can you show me the document, what structures and what exact mileposts?

@CoastLineRailfan
https://www.njtpa.org/NJTPA/media/Docum ... f?ext=.pdf

Just occurred to me, just because the national standard is 286,000 pounds doesn't mean it must be capable everywhere. What car would these customers get that already doesn't traverse the CL already with no problem? Besides the obvious logistical problems, a weight limit clearly doesn't affect the current customers that receive the same cars these people would, and I'm sure it wouldn't be a hindrance to anyone else.

Bracdude181 wrote: ↑Fri Nov 20, 2020 2:36 pm @CoastLineRailfan
https://www.njtpa.org/NJTPA/media/Docum ... f?ext=.pdf

We've seen this before, and this study seems to be more wishful thinking. All of these improvements can be made, but for what customers and who's gonna pay for it? As I just said these "constraints" really don't affect things as they are now, and given the post above, I don't think 286k is a necessity.

Coast Line Railfan wrote: ↑Fri Nov 20, 2020 2:42 pm

Bracdude181 wrote: ↑Fri Nov 20, 2020 2:36 pm @CoastLineRailfan
https://www.njtpa.org/NJTPA/media/Docum ... f?ext=.pdf

We've seen this before, and this study seems to be more wishful thinking. All of these improvements can be made, but for what customers and who's gonna pay for it? As I just said these "constraints" really don't affect things as they are now, and given the post above, I don't think 286k is a necessity.

The government would most likely do it, since almost all the tracks affected are owned by Amtrak/NJT, government agencies. Most likely, with Gateway and the "green" enthusiasm people have, these corridors would be improved under some government infrastructure initiative

@JohnFromJersey Improving the Coast Line for freight would be a lost cause under current NJ Transit Management, who wants no freight on the Coast Line whatsoever. Even if the Coast Line could take Plate F cars weighing 286,000 pounds, NJT would still ban certain cars and commodities altogether. Fixing Farmingdale to Freehold would not only be cheaper, but a FAR better long term investment. It will allow for easier access and better service on the Southern while also providing the potential to serve customers on the Freehold Industrial all on one train. It also means that trains on the Southern are no longer bound to when NJT restrictions from South Amboy to Red Bank.

The current transfer route needs some improvement too. The new Raritan River Bridge will be built to current standards allowing Plate F 286k cars, but the rest of the route has low bridges and catenary wires that prevent the proper clearance for Plate F. Plus, Transit still says what can and can't come down.

If Conrail truly wanted to improve down here, then moving the Sayreville transfer to the NEC and getting Farmingdale to Freehold reopened are gonna be what's really needed. Smaller improvements can be done in the meantime. Such as:

Railroad crossing improvements (especially in Lakewood and Freehold)
New ties and minor roadbed improvements along the Southern. Nothing too major, just fixing of the worst areas of track and putting a new tie in every 6-8 feet or so.
Overgrowth cutting

Sadly, the days of when little improvements like this were made on the Southern are (mostly) over. Not that the tracks were much better in the early 2000s than they are now, but at least the roadbed was better and fewer ties were shot.

Keep in mind gentlemen, things are in this condition because it has devolved over decades of reduced need. Many factors led to this point (business declines, unfriendly business attitude from the State, endorsement of Airline and Trucking over rail, taxes, railroad regulations, how profits are demanded by stockholders every quarter rather than allowing for major investments to develop.....the list goes on and on).

You are not likely to see enough improvements in various areas to see a return in railroading equal to the 1950s before everything fell apart.

As an example, you are going back and forth regarding plate F limitations and the non-unity between Commercial Rail and NJT or NJDOT. You even have been discussing redevelopment of Monmouth Junction. But even, here you are overlooking some of the obvious devolvement.

As a kid in the '60's & '70's I used to see large freights hussling up and down the NE Corridor under Penn Central with the GG-1s and E-44s doing a lot of heavy lifting. There were dozens upon dozens of sidings and parallel tracks for the locals to work (you can still see the remnants). Today there are a couple/few small minor freights moving about on the NEC.

Amtrak owns the NEC. And they are pushing to make the line faster. They don't want the liability of slow freights clogging their traffic. NJT is constantly having difficulty getting their own trains onto the NEC. You comment that NJT doesn't want freight on the Coast Line. I think you are tilting at some pretty big windmills if you think AMTRAK is going to open their arms to any more freight.

CJPat wrote: ↑Fri Nov 20, 2020 6:07 pm Keep in mind gentlemen, things are in this condition because it has devolved over decades of reduced need. Many factors led to this point (business declines, unfriendly business attitude from the State, endorsement of Airline and Trucking over rail, taxes, railroad regulations, how profits are demanded by stockholders every quarter rather than allowing for major investments to develop.....the list goes on and on).

You are not likely to see enough improvements in various areas to see a return in railroading equal to the 1950s before everything fell apart.

As an example, you are going back and forth regarding plate F limitations and the non-unity between Commercial Rail and NJT or NJDOT. You even have been discussing redevelopment of Monmouth Junction. But even, here you are overlooking some of the obvious devolvement.

As a kid in the '60's & '70's I used to see large freights hussling up and down the NE Corridor under Penn Central with the GG-1s and E-44s doing a lot of heavy lifting. There were dozens upon dozens of sidings and parallel tracks for the locals to work (you can still see the remnants). Today there are a couple/few small minor freights moving about on the NEC.

Amtrak owns the NEC. And they are pushing to make the line faster. They don't want the liability of slow freights clogging their traffic. NJT is constantly having difficulty getting their own trains onto the NEC. You comment that NJT doesn't want freight on the Coast Line. I think you are tilting at some pretty big windmills if you think AMTRAK is going to open their arms to any more freight.

I've mentioned time and time again how Amtrak doesn't want to have to deal with freight trains, but most things seem to go unnoticed somehow. But I do still argue that because of the way everything has declined, the need for Plate F and heavier cars isn't there, and consignees that would never realistically receive rail service is nothing more than a dream. That's why I always ruled out Monmouth Junction, for that reason alone. I'd reiterate my point again, not only with the customer issue but if there is a another rail connection, it doesn't necessarily mean it can be used. not necessarily to you, but others.

As a side note, as far as customers wanting to use freight. You need to understand how material markets work in order to recognize whether there is an opportunity available for rail service.

Type 1 - Manufacturers - If they are big enough, they need raw materials in bulk. This makes for a good rail customer for receiving loads, assuming they can store enough bulk on-site to withstand the large amount of time needed to move anything by rail. Far exceeds anything that moves by truck. I previously mentioned why local to local rarely works in NJ. As far as shipping product out, they need a customer who can receive large quantities of materials (the railroad hasn't had LCL since 1960s(?). Remember, a railcar is handling the amount of freight equal to 3-4 tractor trailers.

Type 2 - Distributors - One of the huge things that happened over the last 20-30 years was the price of real Estate skyrocketed and property taxes skyrocketed up with them. Many distributors you saw receiving railcars previously got rid of their huge warehouses and down-sized dealing with a just in time inventory rather than keeping everything in stock on the shelves. Less materials needed from a specific manufacturer means smaller shipments, truck sized shipments. A lot of the trucking you see on the road are LTL loads made up of several pallets from several different providers. If you need only 4 pallets of widgets, you are not going to ask for a box car.

Type 3 - Sellers/Vendors - Same restrictions as Distributors. Joe The Grocer doesn't want 3-4 truckloads of apples or sponges at one time. Everything is downsized. The big exception is if the vendor is part of a large chain that can use a distribution center, like shop-Rite or Home Depot (or Builders General). Then it is rail to the distribution center and truck to Vendor

Rail does only a few things really well and cost efficiently. They move large quantities and not usually in a timely manner (sand, gravel, coal, lumber, plastic pellets, steel coils, etc)) unless they work very hard to make it happen (Unit Trains like the Tropicana Juice Train). And all that doesn't work unless the Receiver can take in and store large quantities.